Yeah, he can straighten you out.
I’m going to look at what you’re talking about with step 1: combat
Okay, I see what you’re talking about.
It does look like the rules talk about deciding whether to ignore transports/submarines during the combat movement phase and again in the conduct combat phase.
So when kamikazes are involved, we’ll use this example:
USA attacking the Philippines amphibiously with a fleet that has a destroyer and a battleship, and the Japanese have a submarine in Zone 35.
Combat movement phase: The attacker says I’m ignoring the submarine and amphibiously assaulting the Philippines.
Scramble and kamikaze decisions are made by the defender. The defender says no scramble but attacks the destroyer with kamikazes. The destroyer is hit by kamikazes.
Because there was no scramble, the attacker may opt to attack or ignore the sub. If there was a scramble, the sub could not be ignored because it is not alone anymore.
Again, if we assume there was no scramble then the attacker could decide to ignore or attack the sub. If he attacks and loses, then he would be forced to retreat the loaded transport. (If there were multiple subs, it’s possible the transport would even be sunk by the defending subs). If the battleship wins, then the amphibious assault is conducted on the Philippines.
You’re right, there can be multiple times in a turn that the attacker makes a decision to ignore or engage transports/submarines, so could change his mind after getting kamikaze results.
But feel free to ask Krieghund
So effectively, the attacker wouldn’t need to declare whether he’s ignoring the sub in Z35 or not, because it doesn’t matter what he says - the defender has the choice to use kamikazes or scramble.
So really, the attacker in this case is making one decision, in the conduct combat phase after kamikaze/scramble.
But normally (no kamikaze situation), the attacker decides during the combat movement phase. If the defender scrambles, well then it doesn’t matter what the attacker said about ignoring or engaging.
I feel sure that the rules at least infer that ignoring a sub is decided before scramble decisions. If a sub is ignored and the defender scrambles, the sub fights unless it is later submerged by the side owning the sub.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, there should be a phase between Combat Movement and Conduct Combat for Scramble/Intercept/Kamikaze decisions.
I’m still unclear on whether Kamikazes can be rolled before scramble decisions though. I don’t think they can but I’m not sure why not?
I’m still unclear on whether Kamikazes can be rolled before scramble decisions though. I don’t think they can but I’m not sure why not?
Scramble decisions are made at the end of combat movement phase, so must be made before any Kamikaze decisions, which are the first thing done in the conduct combat phase. Also note, Kamikazes are completed before any actual combat begins.
Quote: pg 16 Pacific
“If an Allied player attacks Japanese units in or declares an
amphibious assault from one of these sea zones, the Japanese
player can announce at the beginning of this phase that he or
she intends to launch one or more kamikaze strikes in that sea
zone. They are resolved before any combat begins.”
On the sub issue, the attacker would need to ignore the subs twice, but there only needs to be a surface warship present during the movement phase. That requirement is not part of the Amphibious Assault conduct combat rules.
quote: pg 17 Pacific
“Step 1. Sea Combat
If there are defending surface warships and/or scrambled
air units, sea combat occurs. If there are only defending
submarines and/or transports, the attacker can choose to ignore
those units or conduct sea combat.”
So, if there are no scrambled defending planes and no defending surface ships, the attacker has no obligation to start a sea combat. Two different times the attacker can ignore, once during movement phase and once during combat phase, with two different rules requirements to be able to do so. At least that’s how I parse it out.
Thanks Snigg!!
Nice analysis Snigg! So just to clarify, since the initial requirement for the transport to unload was met during the combat move phase (escorting surface war ship) it is no longer a requirement for the tranpsort to unload during the conduct combat phase regardless of how scrambling/kamikaze will affect the battle. I can accept that. But it would be nice if the wording of the rules were actually a little clearer on that point since the way its written now is still open to interperation. Good discusion fellas on a pretty unique situation in the game. Thanks for all the thoughts and input. Case is closed for me. Now its time to pop some pain killers for my dislocated finger from B-ball last night and take a little nappy! :-D
Nice analysis Snigg! So just to clarify, since the initial requirement for the transport to unload was met during the combat move phase (escorting surface war ship) it is no longer a requirement for the tranpsort to unload during the conduct combat phase regardless of how scrambling/kamikaze will affect the battle. I can accept that. But it would be nice if the wording of the rules were actually a little clearer on that point since the way its written now is still open to interperation. Good discusion fellas on a pretty unique situation in the game. Thanks for all the thoughts and input. Case is closed for me. Now its time to pop some pain killers for my dislocated finger from B-ball last night and take a little nappy! :-D
Well, scrambling will initiate a sea combat, as now their will be defending air units present which will automatically drag that sub in too. So, any unescorted transport would be toast at that point. Kamikaze alone isn’t enough to initiate a sea combat, and thus allows the transport to continue to ignore the sub.
Hope the finger gets better…or at least that nap helps ;)
Oh, and of course, does the sub fight in the sea battle? I guess yes, correct?
Yes, again, kamikazes are unique. They are a separate attack that takes place at the beginning of the conduct combat phase.
Scrambles of aircraft (actual plastic pieces on the board as opposed to kamikaze tokens) are regular, conventional battles that create combat in the seazone (kamikazes do not), bringing the subs into the battle.
Thanks!
Now accepting signups for the 2017 playoffs
All players who want to be in the playoffs need to let me know by private message or in the league discussion thread (this thread) and I will sign you up. You will not be in the playoffs if you don’t sign up with me, even if you’re ranked #1. This is because not everyone who is in the top 8 and would qualify for the league playoff wants to play, so you must sign up.
You may see who is signed up by looking at the game results spreadsheet - I made a new tab. As you could see from viewing the list, I have already received signups from
Dawgoneit
Amon-Sul
Von Alba
JuanSpain
You need me to sign you up because I don’t want people to be able to delete someone else or any other funny business - it’s for everyone’s protection, you understand.
League rules state that the only requirement is that you have completed at least 3 games during 2017 in league play. All players with 3 games played may participate in the playoffs
You must sign up by December 30 so that players may begin on January 1. I don’t want to worry about last-minute signups.
Last year’s 2nd playoff champion (league championship game is in progress between RUBIOTON and ME1945) was Wittman, who advanced all the way from the PLAY-IN game!!
Will you be 2017’s Wittman!? You have to enter to find out :-D
Just want to clarify, that is for the additional league playoffs?
I still need 8 games to qualify for the League Champion playoffs?
Any players who have completed 3 or more games, and who did not qualify for the League Champion Playoff may sign up to enter the additional league playoffs. These playoffs will start with 4 or 8 players each, and will be seeded by PPG (with byes or play-in games as necessary)
I am , thank you , Gamerman.
Will PM you later . Funny, as I was going to do that earlier today!
Just want to clarify, that is for the additional league playoffs?
No, this is for ALL playoffs
I still need 8 games to qualify for the League Champion playoffs?
Yes. The top 8 players who sign up and who have completed 8 games will be in the League Champion playoff automatically.
@wittmann:
I am , thank you , Gamerman.
Will PM you later . Funny, as I was going to do that earlier today!
Since I’d received 4 unsolicited signups already, I thought it was time :-)
Just want to clarify, that is for the additional league playoffs?
No, this is for ALL playoffs
I still need 8 games to qualify for the League Champion playoffs?
Yes. The top 8 players who sign up and who have completed 8 games will be in the League Champion playoff automatically.
Right so 3 games doesn’t do you any good, you need 8 games to qualify for league champion playoff.
3 games gets you into playoffs, just not the main one
Yes, you need 8 to qualify for the league champion playoff, 3 for the others
Yes 8 it is. Probably a good number. I completely applaude Simon, Karl 7 and others who finishes all these games. I have a fairly flexible schedule and will not reach 20
In my game vs Simon, we play with tech. The game doesn’t ask me to scramble, then I hit the ab with my rockets and it can’t scramble anymore. What is the correct rule here, can my opponent scramble or not?
Scrambling happens at the end of Combat Movement Phase (page 16, Europe Rulebook) while Rockets occur “During the Strategic and Tactical Bombing Raids step of your Conduct Combat phase” (page 40, Europe Rulebook).
Assuming the airbase wasn’t already damaged to the point of being inoperative at the end of Combat Movement, your opponent should be allowed to scramble.
This is also confirmed in TripleA’s in-game Notes tab under "Rules specific to 1940 the engine does not do, but you must follow’
Thanks wheatbeer!
