@Frederick:
I’m with JDOW on this. The Italians can take Trans Jordan with their transport unless UK puts blockers but the would just get kill by the Italians or the Luftwaffe and that would weaken the UK’s Med fleet. If UK purchased 1 carrier and 2 destroyers R2 that would totally give Germany the best opportunity to do a Sea Lion with taking fewer casualties than normal.
Assuming that Germany does a Sea Lion build on G2, you can adjust appropriately. But of course, I consider a German attempt at Sea Lion a beginner move, since I have yet to see a game where the Axis won after doing Sea Lion.
Of course, you might be saying that Germany could do a Sea Lion build on G3 and try to do Sea Lion on G4. I suppose they could do that. Let’s see, that would be a max of seven transports. That would be answered by a UK3 defensive build. The UK will still control the Med, even if London does fall. Now it’s Russia vs Germany (which has given up the Luftwaffe and numerical advantage over Russia), and Japan vs everyone else. Italy has lost the Med, Africa, and the Middle East and is essentially out of the game. Germany might win the Sea Lion battle for London, but Moscow is safe and the Axis will lose.
Regarding the blockers being killed, duh! That’s what blockers are for – you sacrifice them to buy time. If the enemy doesn’t kill them, so much the better.
@Frederick:
You have a nice idea but it would only work on beginners (no offense). Because I’m a moderate player and I see a flaw in your strategy.
LOL. Just LOL.
Now, in all fairness, you don’t know what I built on UK1 besides the factory, you don’t know what else I did on UK1, and you don’t know what I did with the bid. So far, I’ve just referenced units as described in the setup. Getting part or all of the bid only makes the UK stronger.
Marsh
Assuming that Germany does a Sea Lion build on G2, you can adjust appropriately. But of course, I consider a German attempt at Sea Lion a beginner move, since I have yet to see a game where the Axis won after doing Sea Lion.
I could not agree more with this, only time a Sea Lion is worth it is at end of the game after Moscow has fallen and you catch the UK with their pants down OR you can take it by G3 with 5 trans max and not have to sacrifice the Luftwaffe. But both of these situations require an inexperienced British player. Sea Lion is most definitely an advantage for the allies.
If London falls the UK economy stops meaning they can’t build anything until London is liberated also meaning UK can’t reinforce the med. Plus where did the British win the med? The Italians have a pretty well sized fleet which they can stack on and also have the Luftwaffe protection. Especially if the blockers are destroyed that makes it harder to destroy the Italian fleet. Even if you win the naval battle you will probably lose almost all of your fleet (unless you get lucky). Just saying the Italian fleet doesn’t so easily like you think. In the end it’s only comes down to Germany trying to taking Russia and if they are successful or not.
@Marshmallow:
Sorry, but… no! ;)
Sorry, but yes.
I personally like both, Taranto or stacking fleet in 92 with no Taranto, however hiding fleet in the red sea is objectively bad (especially as Italy can cut them off then through Suez), so is the common overated middle east play. UK must bother Germany from 110. Total middle east and med focus plays into the German hands.
How are you going to cut the UK out of the Med on I1 if the UK destroys blockers to sea zones 96 and 99? Are you planning to take Trans Jordan during the non-combat round? Or with that German transport that mysteriously appeared in the Med?
You can clear the blockers on I1, but you can’t lock the UK out because you can’t take Trans Jordan. On UK2 the UK moves back into sea zone 98 and places a build of one carrier and two destroyers. The UK fleet now has two loaded carriers, five destroyers (six once the French destroyer reaches sea zone 98), and at least one cruiser (two if the sea zone 91 cruiser was used as a blocker on UK1).
The combined Italian fleet and air force cannot handle that fleet – depending on UK1, I1, and UK2 Italian losses they may not even be able to dent it. The only way the Axis can destroy that UK fleet is to sacrifice the Luftwaffe. Good luck getting Moscow if you do that!
If you don’t sacrifice the Luftwaffe, the UK has won the Med. Egypt is safe, the Italian fleet dies on UK3 or runs far away (outside the Med far!), Italy’s income gets convoyed away starting on UK4 at the latest, and the UK starts ferrying fighters to Moscow on UK4. The Italian ground troops in Africa die at the UK’s convenience.
So yeah, sea zone 81 works nicely. I stand by my position that this is the strongest UK play in the Med.
Marsh
Very well said marsh, I must say that I too am a firm believer in pulling back to SZ81 and focusing all of UK income on the ME, it is simply to good because you threaten ALL THREE axis from that position. You are just one move away from Rome, 2 moves from an Indian liberation and can hit the Balkans in one move. This is most definitely the best position for the UK to take. If you use Bids to buy carriers in the red sea and spend income on Naval buys for first 3 turns, the UK finds themselves in a VERY good position to strike at what the Axis leaves open.
It’s too easy for Italy to land a troop on Transjordan and close the Suez.
It’s too easy for Italy to land a troop on Transjordan and close the Suez.
Not if you are shuttling men there via transport from South Africa
You have to be defending both pretty strongly to keep the Suez open. Yes there is an amount which can probably defend against any given attack but it takes time to build this up.
Since we’ve already established that the Suez canal cannot be closed on I1 if the UK deploys blockers, and since the UK fleet moves back into the Med before I2, it does not matter if Italy closes the Med on I2.
Marsh
@Frederick:
Especially if the blockers are destroyed that makes it harder to destroy the Italian fleet. Even if you win the naval battle you will probably lose almost all of your fleet (unless you get lucky). Just saying the Italian fleet doesn’t so easily like you think. In the end it’s only comes down to Germany trying to taking Russia and if they are successful or not.
If the blockers are destroyed, the UK still has:
two loaded carriers with three fighters and a tactical bomber
two cruisers (assuming the Indian cruiser joined)
six destroyers (assuming the Indian and French destoyers joined)
Furthermore, to kill the blockers and clear the Med Italy must disperse its fleet and air force to three different sea zones. Chances are that Italy loses two units clearing the Med and in clearing the blockers leaves an opportunity for the UK air force to kill even more Italian ships. Even if you assume Italy takes no losses while clearing the Med on I1 and on counterattack, the Italian fleet and air force is too small to kill that UK fleet on an Italian attack.
Run the math. The UK fleet owns the Italian fleet unless it flees the Med. It might survive under a full air umbrella, but then it is effectively pinned and useless. If it ventures out from under the umbrella it dies. Easily.
Marsh
@Marshmallow:
Since we’ve already established that the Suez canal cannot be closed on I1 if the UK deploys blockers, and since the UK fleet moves back into the Med before I2, it does not matter if Italy closes the Med on I2.
Marsh
If there is a Taranto raid and a scramble those blockers are often toast. Unless the UK player sacrifices his/her planes to keep a surface ship alive.
@Marshmallow:
Run the math.
Okay. So your two loaded carriers with three fighters and a tactical bomber, two cruisers (assuming the Indian cruiser joined), and five destroyers (assuming the Indian joined) vs five fighters, one aircraft carrier, one battleship, two cruisers, three destroyers, and two subs. Don’t forget that the French destroyer can’t attack with the UK’s fleet. Plus the Luftwaffe can easily finish anything left losing probably one fighter. Yeah I did the math.
If there is a Taranto raid and a scramble those blockers are often toast. Unless the UK player sacrifices his/her planes to keep a surface ship alive.
Pretty sure I’m discussing not doing Taranto.
Marsh
@Frederick:
Okay. So your two loaded carriers with three fighters and a tactical bomber, two cruisers (assuming the Indian cruiser joined), and five destroyers (assuming the Indian joined) vs five fighters, one aircraft carrier, one battleship, two cruisers, three destroyers, and two subs. Don’t forget that the French destroyer can’t attack with the UK’s fleet. Plus the Luftwaffe can easily finish anything left losing probably one fighter. Yeah I did the math.
Where the heck is Italy getting five fighters, a carrier, two subs, and three destroyers on I2? Anyone can do math and predict victory if they include units the enemy cannot possibly have….Do the math again without the fantasy sub, two fantasy destroyers, fantasy carrier, and three fantasy fighters. UK easily wins.
When you do the math with what Italy can actually have available to attack on I2, Italy cannot attack the UK fleet and can only survive an attack under air cover.
Marsh
@Marshmallow:
Pretty sure I’m discussing not doing Taranto.
Alright.
Where did the second CV and 6th DD come from?
DD off Egypt and Cru from SZ91 are presumably lost as a blocker.
Leaves in SZ81 at the end of UK1 only a DD, CV and Cru. Off the horn of Africa there might be another DD and Cru. French DD is also added later.
I count 3DDs, 2Cru and 1CV in SZ98 G3, if not attacked I2.
Where did the second CV and 6th DD come from?
DD off Egypt and Cru from SZ91 are presumably lost as a blocker.
Leaves in SZ81 at the end of UK1 only a DD, CV and Cru. Off the horn of Africa there might be another DD and Cru. French DD is also added later.I count 3DDs, 2Cru and 1CV in SZ98 G3, if not attacked I2.
@Marshmallow:
On UK2 the UK moves back into sea zone 98 and places a build of one carrier and two destroyers. The UK fleet now has two loaded carriers, five destroyers (six once the French destroyer reaches sea zone 98), and at least one cruiser (two if the sea zone 91 cruiser was used as a blocker on UK1).
This was clarified many, many posts back.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=38162.msg1563265#msg1563265
Marsh
Interesting play. I don’t think I grasped it at first.
I still only count 4 UK DDs surviving. One off Egypt is sacrificed as a blocker. Perhaps you’re using the one starting in SZ109?
As YG has mentioned in one of his videos, the Egypt IC build does have the weakness of opening up Sea Lion possibilities, maybe depending on the G1 build.
The way I see it, one maybe two (if the Italian DD hits in SZ96) of the planes have to come from India. Unless you fly them around via Gibraltar.
The destroyer from 109 can make it on UK2 if it is not killed before then, as well as surviving fleet from 110 (if any). The fighter and tactical bomber from India land on the carrier when it moves to sea zone 81. The destroyer and cruiser from India also head over, making it to the rest of the fleet when it moves back into the Med. Joining them is the destroyer from South Africa. Two new destroyers and a new carrier are placed in UK2, joined by the Malta (formerly Gibraltar) and Egypt (formerly Malta) fighters. Looks like five UK destroyers and one French destroyer. If you don’t bring the destroyer from 109, there is obviously one less destroyer.
If you don’t want to strip the aircraft from India, you can fly fighters in from London via Gibraltar, but there is a risk that Italy can kill them with ground units. It would probably be better to land them in Morocco with a French infantry if you are going this route, though Italy could still kill them. Better still would be to land additional ground forces in Morocco with the two fighters, making it really expensive and difficult for Italy to kill the fighters (though you might lose your transport to the Italian sub).
There is also the possibility that Italy chooses not to kill both your blockers to avoid spreading out the Italian fleet. If Italy does kill both UK blockers and also the French fleet, he runs the risk of losing two or more units and also spreads his remaining fleet out instead of concentrating it. This means that the UK can pick off those fleet elements (admittedly at some risk to its fleet/planes).
Also keep in mind that this is with no bid at all – these are all existing units from setup or build on UK2. A bid placed partially or fully in the Med only makes this play stronger.
The rest of the UK1 build goes in London. If Germany does go for Sea Lion after that, it will be terribly expensive.
Marsh
Not sure about your closing comment. Your buys in Egypt tie up all the UK2 purchasing with 1IPC change (2IPC if Ethiopia is taken).
You could build 5 inf or 2inf+1ftr in London with the IC UK1. I guess your advantage is that you keep your planes at home. 5inf + starting doesn’t sound too tough to me. Might require a 5-6TT buy G2.
Not sure about your closing comment. Your buys in Egypt tie up all the UK2 purchasing with 1IPC change (2IPC if Ethiopia is taken).
You could build 5 inf or 2inf+1ftr in London with the IC UK1. I guess your advantage is that you keep your planes at home. 5inf + starting doesn’t sound too tough to me. Might require a 5-6TT buy G2.
You do Realize that the UK/France stack end of round one would be 11 Inf 1 Mech 5 AA and 4 Fighters. And then if Germany does a buy of 5-6 TT then UK will surely buy 10 Inf in response. So that means you are looking at a London defense of 21 Inf 1 Mech 5 AA and 4 Fighters. Against 7-8 German TTs. Well load those TTs and say Germany brings 5 Fighters 5 Tac and 2 Strat. Well I ran those odds with 8 TT and UK won 68% of the time. So I’d say bring it.
