Adding value to naval bases

@the_jetset:

 Naval bases must be KO’d (3 damage markers) before the land portion of an amphibious assault can begin.  Naval bases with no accompanying sea units must still be KO’d before the land portion of an amphibious assault can begin.

I strongly disagree on this. It was actually very rare that the Port was knocked out before the invasion started. But, in the cases where the Port was knocked out, the attackers could walk ashore as if they were on holiday. But attacking against undamaged Ports, and you got lots of casualties. My point is, its the Players choice to attack or not, not the Rules. In the real world, the Generals don’t have any Rulebooks that says its not allowed to attack unless this or that is done. They attack anyway.

Look at the Dieppe Raid, there were no preemptive shore bombardment nor Air Strikes, just a suicidal charge by Canadian infantry supported by some Churchill Tanks, and they all died. With your rules, the Dieppe Raid was illegal and not allowed to do.

With your rules, even the Normandy landings would have been an illegal move, since the shore bombardment and aircrafts bombing were not able to knock out the German Blockhouses before the amphibious assault started. Omaha beach talk by itself.

And I could go on and on.

@the_jetset:

Naval Bases have ONE purpose:  EXTEND THE RANGE OF YOUR FLEETS, period.

•  A surface ship may not go more than THREE turns without ending movement in sea-zone with a friendly operational Naval Base

This is historical correct and I partly agree, but…… it looks like a pain to keep track of.

Also, since an A&A game turn is supposed to be between 3 and 6 months, the ships should only be allowed to go from Port to Port, and not stop at the middle of an ocean, and this will of course ruin the game as we know it.

My suggestion is, an operational Port boost your move 1 space, both in combat move and non combat move. This is OOB.

Also, if you are headed to a friendly operational Port in non combat move, that arrival Port should boost you 1 extra move too.

Ships move 2 only, when sailing from here to there.

But, you can sail 4 spaces in non combat between 2 operational Ports. I think that makes sense and are playable too

Naval Bases :  2@1 AA shots at planes.  !st round only.
                    2@1 AA shots at ships.  1st round only.

Defender chooses one or the other only.

2@1 against any ground troops for 1st round only.

Defender has to have at least 1 inf with naval base.

Hello Narvik and YG,

@Naval Bases Firing: These are all great points that both Narvik and YG made.  In my first post I was just floating some balloons regarding this.  Looking at the posts, as both of you suggested, I would propose that a NB can have UP TO 3x@1 hits that are preemptive.  One dice is removed with each damage marker that the NB has before combat begins as a result of bombing raids.  Narvik, I am thinking of Naval Bases as somewhat abstracted.  They not only represent the port, but they also include a general array of coastal defensive measures like you mentioned.  Therefore, as in history, it would be in the interest of the attacker to use a series of bombing raids against Coastal Fortifications (represented by a Naval Base) before the amphibious assault part of the invasion begins. …. What do you think?  Up to 3 x @1?   …  and each damage marker from bombings would remove 1 dice.

**@Naval Bases and Fleets:  ** YG.  I am going to make my case again for having the bases go hand-in-hand with the fleets.  In the OOB rules, a Naval Base gives a bonus to ship movement.  But it is just kind of a nice bonus … it really doesn’t have too much strategic significance.  Lets face it, either the Japanese or the US forces could come to dominate the Pacific without really paying too much attention to who has what Naval Base and where.  … They are just kind of there to repair the occasional BB or CV.   Nice … but not necessary.

By having Fleets reduce their movement to ONE SPACE after their 3rd turn away from a Naval Base, you suddenly make Naval Bases IMPORTANT.  Please take a moment and look at your G40 map.  Look now at the Carolina Islands.  Japan NEEDS that Naval Base!  Also, if Japan wants to hit Australia, they NEED to put a Naval Base in New Guinea.  … The same now works in reverse.  USA must take the Naval Base in the Carolina Islands and use it as a spring-board for both keeping Australia in the game and hitting Japan where it hurts in the money-islands.

On the Atlantic side … look how important Gibraltar suddenly is!!  That Naval Base is integral for launching any kind of a significant operation into North Africa.

This is a game-changer!!  This adds an entire new strategic layer to the game and enhances historical reality.

It would be pretty easy to keep track of.  It would just use a different color chip, (maybe Pink … or even the OOB Green ones if you just use the Grey and Red for unit stacks).  Or, a specific color dice could also be used.

After the None-Combat Moves, maybe during the Convoy Raiding Step.  … Just place a chip in each sea-zone where you have a ship(s) not adjacent to a NB.

Then, in your next turn, all ships with a stack of 3 chips can only move 1 space.  Once the stack hits 3 chips, it is no longer necessary to add more.

Another Balloon to float.   Maybe the rule should read:  At the start of each turn, all surface ships must return to within 3 spaces away from a friendly operable NB??  This would be at the START of each turn.  Therefore, if a ship is more than 3 spaces away at the beginning, they must return to the NB range.   If the ship is within base range at the beginning of the turn, they can move out of range and strike ….  They will have to move back into range at the beginning of their next turn though.

This gives historical added value to the Naval Bases and makes them strategically important.   It also does not add complications to gameplay.

Well … It should be a tough nut to crack!  :-D

If 1 to 3 planes scramble then the Naval Base doesn’t get any AA shots.

I think that would make for some serious limitations to German Subs

“Surface Ships”.  :wink:

[Edit]. Subs can go and see the lights of New York, or enjoy the warm waters of the Caribbean Sea.  ….  Japanese subs can prowl the Panama canal or peak at the sights of San Francisco … Or maybe even take a trip to Madagascar.  :)

Ok.  I know it would have a profound change in the game on the Strat level.  … But it wouldn’t just be a rule for the sake of having a rule.  It would better model the game within the existing rules … I think.

Japan tried to take Midway and the Allutien Islands with the idea of using them as a Naval and Air bases for later taking Hawaii and parts of Alaska  … Then, if things went well, they could use Alaska and Hawaii to threaten the West Coast.

It’s a “Step by Step”, Island hoping approach.  … More of a realistic simulation than simply loading a bunch of transports in LA and moving directly into Japan …  Or vice-versa.

And … More than anything … It definitely complies with Adding Value to Naval Bases.

Chew it over.  I am hosting a game on Saturday and was just planning to implement the new “3-Turn” set of rules … But I think I’m going to also include this Naval Base rule … Definitely the Up To 3@1 part … But I would like to also make Naval Bases more historically accurate and fulfill their role as a hand-in-hand necessity for Naval Fleets

@ Naval Base Defense Rolls:  I like that YG.  It keeps it more simple.  Operational, 3@1.  Non-Operational, 0 rolls.  Rolls are made after Naval portion of Amphibious Assault and Preemptive to the Land-Portion.  Attacker can select, air, land or sea units for casualties.

@ Naval Base Purpose: … Programing Language Style

• Surface Ships (ie… Anything except Subs) have an operating range.  Range is provided by Friendly Operational Naval Bases.

• Naval Base Range is 3 Sea Zones.

• If a Surface Ship starts their turn inside the range of a Naval Base, it may still move 2 spaces and conduct a strike or patrol OUTSIDE of the Naval Base range. … This would result in the ship being up to 5 spaces from the Naval Base at the end of the turn.

• If a Surface Ship starts their turn >3 Sea Zones from Friendly, Operational Naval Base, it must attempt to get back into the Naval Base Range.  (i.e. All movements must be in the direction of an Operational Naval Base on that turn)

• Therefore:  –->  Sustained Patrols may be conducted for an unlimited amount of turns within 3 sea zones of a Naval Base.

• And Also: –->    Strikes, or Probes, may be conducted up to 5 sea zones away from a Naval Base.

[Edit]. YG.   No changes are made to how ships move.   It is still 3 spaces when launching from a NB and 2 spaces when not.   Naval Bases only provide an Operating Radius to Surface Ships … This works as follows:

Ships can stay for an indefinite amount of time inside of operating radius of a Friendly Naval Base. And move OOB inside that Radius.  The Operating Radius of a Naval Base is 3 Sea Zones.

If a ship starts it’s turn inside of the Operating Radius of a Navy Base, it may move 2 sea zones in any direction.  Therefore, leaving the Operating Radius if desired and going to a MAXIMUM of 5 sea zones away from the nearest Operational Naval Base.  (3+2)

If, at the beginning of a turn, a ship finds itself OUTSIDE of the Operating Radius of an operational Friendly Naval Base, it must use it’s movement allowance to move towards an Operational Friendly Naval Base.

------ Let’s look at what this does / / / /

Japan starts the game having a Naval Base in Carolina Islands.  This base (as it did in real life), extended the sustained operating range of the Japanese Imperial Navy.  They could, in theory, conduct strikes along the coast of Australia from this base.  …  They could also dominate the seas around New Guinea.

The US had a Naval Base in the Philippines for the same reason.  It gave them an Operating Radius along the China Coast and in the West Pacific.

If Japan where to lose their base in Carolina Islands, they would lose their ability to threaten Australia and New Guinea.  If USA where to lose their base in Philippines, they would lose their ability to threaten Japan and the money islands in the south.

This is why Japan took the Philippines.  …  This is also why USA launched attacks on the Carolina Islands after the Battle of Midway.

By making Naval Bases do what they are actually supposed to do in real life, Provide a base of operation for Navy Fleets and to Extend the Range of your Naval Fleets, you make a much more accurate model of the War in the Pacific … and you also stay within the OOB rules of Axis and Allies. …

In SUPER SHORT …  You “tie” your Surface Ships to Naval Bases.   They literally have an elastic leash.  The leash starts to pull back once a ship goes beyond 3 sea zones.  The leash hits it stopping point at 5 sea zones.

Want to extend the range of your Naval Fleets??  Build (or capture) additional Naval Bases further out.