How often do you purchase new AAA?

In very long games I have seen them purchased in the Middle East and Egypt to protect from the massive Luftwaffe.

As Cyanight said, I buy them for  the English to safeguard the ME against those nasty Hun.

@General:

The player that is best suited to buying AAA is Germany since they can be plopped directly on Normandy and Southern France, but since the common defensive strategy is to launch a counteroffensive from Paris there’s no point.

Could an extra AAA or two in addition to starting ones help swing the Moscow battle for Russia? Have to consider the opportunity cost of fewer infantry.

nope an extra inf is more valuable every time

This might not help get more into the games, but a universal across the board discount on AA artillery should be in order… 4 IPCs I would say.

On the other hand, I kinda always thought that to many more than what was in the setup could be unbalanced.

I sometimes buy them for a known raid against Moscow or London when the calculator suggests a better final outcome.  If the attacker has any choice to use the planes elsewhere or skip the attack, buying a AAA does not make sense.

@SubmersedElk:

nope an extra inf is more valuable every time

This.

Marsh

@Young:

This might not help get more into the games, but a universal across the board discount on AA artillery should be in order… 4 IPCs I would say.

4 is reasonable – I might buy at 4. Alternately, if movement were increased to two, I might also buy them.

Marsh

Yeah, they’re are pretty rare purchase. On some occasions, like when you know India or Moscow is about to fall, and the axis have to bring air power in to take them, it is often worth purchasing some AAA to try and get some lucky plane hits.

I am glad that they cost 5 IPCs to build.  AAAs add a considerable amount of random luck to the big battles.  I have had a final attack on Moscow fail because of incredible dice rolling.  The AAAs shot down 8 out of 10 Japanese planes that went in for a suicide blitz.  I still had a 99% chance for a German victory but again ridiculous AAA accuracy led to ultimate failure.  If I didn’t roll the dice myself, I would be suspecting the opponent of cheating…

Likewise, I have seen opponents get so upset that the AAAs never hit that they quit the game.  When they get zero hits in 20 rolls (3% likelihood), they curse more loudly than a failed G1 attack on Paris.  Low luck solves the randomness, but I hate games where you can precisely dial in an attack force to guarantee victory at minimal loss.

@SubmersedElk:

nope an extra inf is more valuable every time

I’m usually on board with you Elk, but I disagree with this one.

Let’s say Japan is clearly going to attack India next turn, and let’s say India has 5 IPC to spend (a scenario that is actually not too far out there).  I’ll always take the extra AA gun in that case (assuming Japan would be coming with enough planes to get an extra three shots).

I’m usually in favor of getting India at least 1 extra AA gun.

@Arthur:

Likewise, I have seen opponents get so upset that the AAAs never hit that they quit the game.  When they get zero hits in 20 rolls (3% likelihood), they curse more loudly than a failed G1 attack on Paris.  Low luck solves the randomness, but I hate games where you can precisely dial in an attack force to guarantee victory at minimal loss.

Probably why low luck for anti air only is an option in Triple-A.

So what would the odds be if 3 AA Guns were 1@2 each with 9 air units attacking?

@Young:

So what would the odds be if 3 AA Guns were 1@2 each with 9 air units attacking?

So with only 3 defense @2 you get:
On average 45% of shooting down 1 plane.

http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=9&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=3&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=1&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

With 9 defense @2 you get:
On average 28% of shooting down 3 Fgs.

http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=9&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=9&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=1&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

What are odds of 3 AA Guns with 9 air units using oob rules?

35% of shooting one down.

http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=9&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=9&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=1&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

So if each gun’s defense value was modified to 1@2… they would be slightly better units than they are now.

If I have 5, 8, 11,… IPC (anything that is 3*x +2) and, if I believe an attack is iminent (ie next round). Then the AA is essencially a unit that killes half a plane and is taken as loss in the first round. So it is strictly better for defence in the next turn, and next turn only.

Possible uses: round 2 in London to stop a sealon (especially since i might have more than 30 IPC).
Round 2-4 in India to prevent india crush.
Moscow round 8, if I am not retreating, and think buying that one will make me barely survive for some wierd reason.
Egypt,since I only will have a minor IC there and might need to maximze defensive power within the limit of buying 3 units.

In total, I will consider buying them probably 1-3 times every game, and buy them once every other game.

Japan and germany might do similar calculations from time to time.

I think you guys need to run the numbers on an INF vs. an AAA.

The AAA is for all practical purposes never better odds than an INF. Like, ever.

Not IPC-adjusted.

1 INF will straight up defend better in all cases except a 1-round battle with 2+ air for it to shoot at.

That last case can occur in 2 situations:

1. Defender’s capital last stand, overwhelmed - trying to spend every last IPC so enemy doesn’t get it. The minute difference between 1 AAA vs. 1 INF isn’t the player’s problem here.

2. Defender’s undefended factory, building token resistance. If an attacker is relying on an almost all-air attack with one token land unit to take the territory, in addition to the 1-round limit, 2 inf 1 AAA can be slightly more valuable than 3 INF here. Of course, the more AAA the fewer planes the enemy will need to send to capture so the balance of forces needs to be quite particular.

It’s a broken unit. At the very minimum it should have the ability to continue to roll 1@1 against enemy air as long as there are attacking air forces, even if that means reducing its initial AA roll to 1@1 as well. Either that or it should roll 5@1 instead of 3@1 on the initial strike. It needs something to make it mathematically viable in competitive game situations.

My personal taste on AAA is to be able to roll each round and cost the same as Infantry.
Attack 0
Defense 0, 1 first strike against up to 2 planes which ever the lesser
1 hit value
Move 1 (both CM or NCM)
Cost 3

That way, you may want to preserve it on the next round (over an Infantry) if there is at least 2 attacking planes. When there is only one, it is a gambling between a better Infantry defense roll @2   for 2/6 odds (3 IPCs target worth 1 IPC on avg) and a 1/6 odds of killing a plane (12 IPCs target worth 2 IPCs on avg).

I know Larry started with this suggestion (but keeping cost at 6) during Alpha 2 project.
But he rather simplify thing to give all rolls during the opening round.
Probably, it is an average of a full two rolls defense first round and a single roll on second round because around 50% of AAA are taken as casualty in the opening combat round.
So giving up to 3 rolls was simpler and a bit stronger since the third roll have an impact before planes can have their attack roll.

@SubmersedElk:

I think you guys need to run the numbers on an INF vs. an AAA.

The AAA is for all practical purposes never better odds than an INF. Like, ever.

Not IPC-adjusted.

1 INF will straight up defend better in all cases except a 1-round battle with 2+ air for it to shoot at.

That last case can occur in 2 situations:

1. Defender’s capital last stand, overwhelmed - trying to spend every last IPC so enemy doesn’t get it. The minute difference between 1 AAA vs. 1 INF isn’t the player’s problem here.

2. Defender’s undefended factory, building token resistance. If an attacker is relying on an almost all-air attack with one token land unit to take the territory, in addition to the 1-round limit, 2 inf 1 AAA can be slightly more valuable than 3 INF here. Of course, the more AAA the fewer planes the enemy will need to send to capture so the balance of forces needs to be quite particular.

It’s a broken unit. At the very minimum it should have the ability to continue to roll 1@1 against enemy air as long as there are attacking air forces, even if that means reducing its initial AA roll to 1@1 as well. Either that or it should roll 5@1 instead of 3@1 on the initial strike. It needs something to make it mathematically viable in competitive game situations.

The calculation you are making here isn’t right. It ignores the first strike of a AAA and also ignores that it is hitting a strong unit attacking at a 3 or a 4 instead of a probable 1 or 2.

Although you raise an interesting point - AAA vs 3 planes kills 0.5 planes on average while 1 inf kills 0.33 inf. But vs 1 plane it only kills 0.166 planes.