Capital Punishment: case of Stanley "Tookie" Williams

@ncscswitch:

Zooey, no offense but…

People who fall back on some divine, omnipotent, omnipresent divine entity as the basis and foundation of their arguments are rather annoying.  With such people, you can;t argue facts, you can;t use logic.  To debate with such a person is to pound your head on a wall of irrational, unreasoning putrescence of thought.

Some things are worth taking on faith (like what happens to your soul, if you have one, after you die).

But to rely on a text that was not codified as the Gospels until the Council of Nicene nearly 4 centuries after the life of a philosopher known as Yeshuah of Nazareth (Gospels which were selected after excluding hundreds of other writings and POTENTIAL gospels; and Gospels which were further edited by King James 4 centuries ago)…  And then to realize that ALL of those “written” Gospels were transcribed after an extended period of being passed via an oral tradition…

Well, let me just say that debating someone who uses a foundation of a 4 century long version of the Kindergarten Telephone Game played 2 millenia ago as the sole basis for their evaluation of modern society leaves something to be desired in the matter of both logic AND faith.

I would like to read some of the gospels that “didn’t make the grade” some time just to see how they go with the 4 they picked.

But some things need to be taken on faith.  I can understand someone only reading the gospel and not going any further, their faith telling them that although there was a lot of “revision” the message is still there because God willed it that way.  My problem is with the people who either never took the time to read the book they supposedly have dedicated their life to, or have butchered the content to suit their lifestyle.

Well, then pick up the Dead Sea Scrolls, that is the largest known written collection of materials considered by the Council of Nicene but not selected by the Council to be Gospels.  You can also pick up the Apocrifa which are those books of the Gospels (and portions of books) that WERE determined at Nicene to be Gospels, but which were editted out by King James and are largely excluded from all Protestant New Testaments.

On a side note (and sorry for the off-topic), it is a shame that it takes a non-practicing eclectic neo-pagan that was raised Lutheran to tell a Christian their own history in terms of the books that are and are not in their Bible, when they were selected, and when they were removed.

Doesn’t anyone do a Catechism anymore?  Doesn;t anyone take Comparative Religion?  Doesn;t anyone ever read any of the myth cycles of other cultures?

I’d probably REALLY blow folks away if I mentioned that the Gospels and the story of Jesus Christ is almost verbatim the myth cycle of Zoroastrianism, a minor religion in areas of the Middle East (modern Israel, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria primarily) that was popular in the 2nd and 3rd century BCE. (about 300 years before the time of Yeshuah of Nazareth)

@ncscswitch:

On a side note (and sorry for the off-topic), it is a shame that it takes a non-practicing eclectic neo-pagan that was raised Lutheran to tell a Christian their own history in terms of the books that are and are not in their Bible, when they were selected, and when they were removed.

Doesn’t anyone do a Catechism anymore?  Doesn;t anyone take Comparative Religion?  Doesn;t anyone ever read any of the myth cycles of other cultures?

I’d probably REALLY blow folks away if I mentioned that the Gospels and the story of Jesus Christ is almost verbatim the myth cycle of Zoroastrianism, a minor religion in areas of the Middle East (modern Israel, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria primarily) that was popular in the 2nd and 3rd century BCE. (about 300 years before the time of Yeshuah of Nazareth)

Love mythology/religion myself.  A good read is The World’s Religion’s by Huston Smith.  You don’t see many religious studies unless you go to a religious based school, or reach a school of higher learning (college).  That, or maybe in larger cities.
As you’ve noted in other threads, many ideas/concepts have been adopted by emerging religions to assimilate the “pagans.”  For instance, the occurrence of Christian holidays that correspond with pagan ones.  That’s a whole other topic, though.
See you in the “Weed-Smoking Jews of Jamaica” topic.

@Jermofoot:

See you in the “Weed-Smoking Jews of Jamaica” topic.

And I’ll see you in Alcoholic Bondage Pagans Who Play Board Games!  LOL

:evil: how do i scroll down on the Topic Summary list to view the post history in its entirety? im annoyed that i cant see it, because i want to post to things that are further back than the list goes.

what?

@Wargaming_nut:

Why are you trying to justify this? There is no way a Christian can support the death penalty without completely disregarding Jesus’ teachings.

Jesus also said he came to fulfill the law, and the law clearly states that a murderer is to be killed.

Fry the bastard.

Jesus came to transcend the old Mosaic law. And if you want to go by Mosaic Codes, should we still be stoning adulterous women? Should slaves still obey their masters?

@Imperious:

Question for Mary…or others

Is their any point in your philosophy where if the murderer of many eventually deserves death?

I hate to use the Hitler example but hes dreadful enough for this purpose

would he be put to death under any circumstances? huh?

You can only carry this Christian thing so far, after a point its utility as a guidline for behavior requires too many unnatural changes.
we cant just keep up a stiff upper lip in the face of the pure evil allowing it in our presence.

Jesus would NEVER advocate killing a person, no matter what their crime. “No sin is so great that it cannot be forgiven”. The New Testament is almost exclusively about forgiving people and non-violence.

And no, I’m not a Christian. But Jesus’s teachings were profound at the time.

no true christian would support the death penalty. that said, no true christian would do a lot of things that many “christians” do on a regular basis. ive yet to encounter a “true” christian, in every sense of the faith. that doesnt mean they are bad, they simply have modified beliefs, which is fine. they just shouldnt profess to follow christs teachings to the letter.

But if someone considers themselves a Christian, they “should” oppose the death penalty. If they support it, they must recognize they are not following Jesus’s teachings, and should try to change their own mind.

@Zooey72:

@Mary:

Who would Jesus execute?

Who would jesus have not follow him?  Are you penniless and have no home depending only on God for survival?

So knock off the Jesus crap, people only use him as a refrence when it suits their argument.  They should focus that energy and take the plank out of their own eye.  If you don’t know what that means, I suggest you read the gospel.

if we’re quoting, let’s do the whole thing: “And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and; behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.””

How is talking about Jesus’s message of non-violence being hypocritical? Where have I advocated violence or killing people on this messageboard?

@Zooey72:

@Mary:

Who would Jesus execute?

Oh, and mary.  This just occured to me.  “Give to Rome what is Rome’s, give to God what is God’s”.

This pretty much says that Christians shouldn’t interfere in government.  So I am guessing that Jesus would not stop capital punishment, esp. since that is the way he “saved” all of us.

No, that passage has to do with taxes. If govt. wants you to do something heinous (e.g., round up jews to be liquidated), you’re supposed to non-violently protest (e.g., hide jews, passive protest, etc.) You can try to argue that Jesus would be out there blowing the whistle on some Jews hiding in an attic in W.W. II, but I don’t think you’ll get too far with that.

@Zooey72:

@cystic:

Ironically Mary is not a Christian (AFAIR) - nor am i using the gospel as a support against the death penalty, but rather to shoot down Christian arguments for it.

Than why the spiel about "who would jesus execute?"  Even if she isn’t Christian, she still shouldn’t take what she wants out of the Gospel and leave the rest and try to claim some moral authority by saying her opinion is backed by christ.

I have read “Mein Kamph” (for college).  If you pick and choose (edit heavily) sentences from it a picture can be painted of Hitler only being very patriotic and looking out for the best interests of the German people.  The truth is far from that, but if do to “Mein Kamph” what Christians and others do to the Bible than you can twist it to say just about anything.

The bible contradicts, the Gospel does not.  Chirst is very constant in his message.

Yes, Christ is very consistent: love thy neighbor, forgive thy enemy, turn the other cheek. I don’t see support for the death penalty in any of Christ’s teachings.

@ncscswitch:

On a side note (and sorry for the off-topic), it is a shame that it takes a non-practicing eclectic neo-pagan that was raised Lutheran to tell a Christian their own history in terms of the books that are and are not in their Bible, when they were selected, and when they were removed.

Doesn’t anyone do a Catechism anymore?  Doesn;t anyone take Comparative Religion?  Doesn;t anyone ever read any of the myth cycles of other cultures?

I’d probably REALLY blow folks away if I mentioned that the Gospels and the story of Jesus Christ is almost verbatim the myth cycle of Zoroastrianism, a minor religion in areas of the Middle East (modern Israel, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria primarily) that was popular in the 2nd and 3rd century BCE. (about 300 years before the time of Yeshuah of Nazareth)

Is this directed at me?  Hey buddy, I’m not a Christian.  I have just read the bible (esp. the gospel) and think that it has some merit.  I have read other religions too, like the one you mentioned.  Which was the first religion to adopt a “God” and a “Satan” in the way the bible does (as well as angels).  Many think it is what Christianity was based off of.  There are still a few left (when I read about them years ago it was estimated at 100k), but not many.  Their “burial” is wierd too, (if you can call it a burial).  They leave the body out in the open to be eaten by vultures and what not.

If I was to pick any religion that is closest to what I believe it would have to be the baha’i.  I don’t buy all of it, but most of it sounds good (I don’t agree that ALL religions have something worth studying.  Shinto and confucianism are crap IMO).  I have never spoken to a practicing member because I don’t want the illusion to be destroyed.  Christianity sounds good from the gospel, than talk to a “Christian” and see how they practice it.  Not usualy the same thing at all.

Then I must stand corrected and apologize.  You don;t normally hear a non-Christian being such a strong advocate of the Gospels (as a matter of fact, this time is a first for me).  Forgive the assumption.

I’d like to ask for an excuse on behalf of the smart majority of atheists. The views presented here are singular opinions and by no means should be taken to judge over the entirety of atheists.

@F_alk:

I’d like to ask for an excuse on behalf of the smart majority of atheists. The views presented here are singular opinions and by no means should be taken to judge over the entirety of atheists.

Hhhmmm, guess I should echo that thought in that MY views are certainly not indicative of the majority of US Neo-Pagans (which are generally so left wing they would make CC look like a George Bush supporting staunch Replublican :-P )