G40 Redesign (currently taking suggestions)

@taamvan:

I recommend a G40.2 focus on 1) new, revised start 2) same unit rules and turn order 3) NOs and island money that make you chase the money� island hop or put your income at risk to make money taking more dynamic 4) addressing SB’s power with better AAA, better interception, or something jesus its broken

Very insightful post Taamvan. Thanks.

Couple questions:

3. NO and Island money:  I assume this is directed at the Pacific. Do you have any specific suggestions? I don’t always understand why certain territories have a given $ value, but some of it has to deal with the supposed abundance of war resources there. Most of the small Pacific islands have little-to-no resource related value, so I don’t see how you could arbitrarily make them worth more $ (EDIT: more than $1). The other option would be more NOs to accomplish this. But as you said they are artificial and you would rather see the strategic motivation for taking territories constructed within the game itself. More NOs sounds like more “pyrrhic trap(s)…”.

4. What did the Balance Mod do for the StratB to lessen its power? Leaving the StratB at OOB A4 D1 M6 C12 and trying to curtail its power with other units and mechanisms (AA, interception, etc…) seems like a much more intensive and complicated effort than simply changing the StratB attributes.

@Black_Elk:

To the specific San Francisco HR discussion… Ok if submarines not hitting submarines is off the table in tripleA, then we need to go another route. I think the 1:1 for dd/ss is still a contender in that case. It doesn’t alter the complex interactions that players have already memorized, just scales them in a way makes subs more attractive. I’m not sure it goes far enough to make subs truly independent of surface fleets, but at least it makes them harder to blast out of the water with a single dd and a gang of aircraft. I’m still all ears, if we can think of a better rule for subs, that still follows the kiss formula.

The replies from CWO and L.Hoffman have me feeling pretty comfortable about the defensless bomber, the AB+2 and the M3 cruiser. The M3 transport requires a bit of imagination to justify, but it’s effects on the gameplay are interesting enough that I would be willing to propose whatever abstractions and contortions might be required to defend the idea. If it’s poison gas, at least it’s got the charm of Nitrous Oxide, and Japan and America can both laugh their way into a Pacific naval meltdown hehe.

No A&A HR I’m aware has ever attempted to introduce a separate rate
of movement for transports on the water. Since Classic it’s always been M2 for everything. Even the NB+1 introduced in 1940, still treated all ships the same way for the bonus. Here you have something rather different. I think it has the potential to be at least as significant as the tank blitz on land, something that will drive the play patterns on the water, in directions we haven’t quite seen before.

Ps. I like that last suggestion Baron about the VC escort too. We’ll keep it in the back pocket. I can also imagine other possible ideas for a simple aircraft movement in 42.2, like habing the movement from an island into a sz not count (something we once discussed for zero ipc Pacific Islands) but perhaps only if the plane is conducting SBR or flying escort? Something like that might work if it’s needed.

Fine for back pocket Movement bonus for 1942.2

On helping Submarine survivability, there is three things which can provides more odds of survival in case of massive air and single DD attack:
a) 1 single round of blocking submerge capacity, so second round all surviving subs can escape in same SZ, DD presence is no more relevant on second round.
Triple A should allow all Subs an option to submerge on second combat round.
Specific window would open to offer sub commander this option, same way it happens when there is no DD on the opposite side.
b) Limiting the number of submarines blocked, with an appropriate ratio (1:1, or 1:2),
c) Applying both rules a and b.

I play-tested only C, combining both a and b.
IDK if both are possible in Triple A.
About a) the one time opportunity feel pretty like in Classic time when planes got a single shot before Sub submerge.
I prefer this because being trapped round after round until killed is mostly like auto-destroy with a meager defense @1 for Sub.
It brings no satisfaction, only survival to fight another day is the key. Giving attacking opponent a single shot is enough.

If I have to chose, a) is better than b IMO.
It is consistent with Destroyer blocking all Sub’s Submerge, Stealth Move and Surprise Strike.
It only specify that blocking Submerge is for the first combat round only.
Not so different than OOB, but gives hope from defending Subs POV.

b) Blocking a specific number of Subs (1:1 / 1:2) needs to be referred to same ratio for Stealth Move and Surprise Strike and Submerge.
First, I would not rise to 1:3, rather keep OOB, this is not far that much when 2 DDs can block 6 Subs. It is a lot of unit in a single SZ.
1:1 and 1:2 can brings more Submarines passing trough DD blockers. This reach the goal of spreading naval unit.

On Stealth Move, 1:2 seems more reasonable for DD C8 vs Sub C6 (all depends on which units is cheaper, if DD is cheaper then 1:1).
Suppose 6 Subs are in Baltic Sea and 1 UK DD is North Sea SZ112 and another DD in SZ111 and you want to reach empty UK’s Convoy SZ119.
You may launch 2 Subs against SZ112 in CM, if cleared in NCM you launch all 4 Subs, and 2 remains SZ111 and 2 Subs reach SZ119.
Or launch 2 Subs against SZ112 in CM, 2 Subs against SZ111, and if all SZ cleared last 2 reach SZ119. Otherwise, both Subs would be blocked along the path.

But, for Triple A play test, I probably prefer 1:1, so it can be more easily players enforced for the second subs.

Seems also more interesting to have Subs able to pass trough DD net.

A different issue coming from blocking 1:1 Surprise strike, add a lot of complexity is that differential between Sub and DDs whether positive or negative on each combat round makes for some Subs getting Surprise strike and other round none.

After 1 game, I returned to 1 DD is full blocking Surprise Strike, easier to manage.
Going that way, DD and Sub should be same cost or DD cheaper.

@barney:

@Baron:

So, is it possible to copy, paste a line of code from V3 into V5, so Subs still get there Submerge phase before lonely planes try to hit them?
And still, in massive naval combat, planes’ hits can be allocated to Subs, as it was a Cruiser successful roll to hit?
P.S Thanks for infos on Triple A Air battle

Yea should work on 42.2. I’ll add it in if you want. It can be turned on/off in map options.
I didn’t realize the air battles could be that extensive. Let me know if you come up with an idea for it and I’ll test it on the mod I’m workin on. : )

@Black Elk
yea unless I misunderstood ya we can’t do the 1DD can only block 1 sub thing. Anyway got all the other stuff ready to go.

To let planes attack directly Submarines (like Cruiser) clearly open new options to simplify interactions, if you can do it.
Turn on/off is a massive feature from my POV.  :-o :-o :-o
It would allow people to test both features: OOB complex and much simpler Fg vs Sub.

On Air battle, do you mean that it is not restricted to SBR?
You can introduce it over regular TTY with no IC on it? Really?!?
It would open kind of 1914 air combat option if the case…
Still, since it is an optional

I just got this idea to change Sub fodder dynamic to DDs padding:
Just increasing the DD to make it a better defense unit than offense.
While Submarines remains the best offensive.
However, both oppose similar combat values: A2fs vs D2 and A1 vs D1fs.
That way, it allows to keeps subs at low 6 IPCs.
And if Subs can submerge after first round, it will be better to save it for later.

Cost 6
DESTROYER (Escort) A1 D2 M2 C6 IPCs,
1 DE blocks any number of Submarines’ abilities:
Surprise Strike,
Stealth Move in CM and NCM, and
Submerge.

Cost 6
SUBMARINE A2 first strike D1 first strike M2 C6 IPCs
first strike when no enemy’s DD present, same for first strike roll on defense
blocked by DD on 1: x basis Surprise Strike, Stealth Move and
Plane cannot hit unsubmerged Submarine during combat round without Destroyer presence.
(If a Sub submerge during first strike phase, plane can not hit Sub.)
Submarine cannot hit aircrafts.

Even more it still might work with Sub at 5 IPCs (to get another unit to this sweet spot).
The Sub success ratio is weaker than OOB. However, on defense it is stronger than OOB.
So, in that case, it gives more room for Sub survival. And it is not considering the increase number of DD available due to reduced cost to 6 IPCs.
6 Subs A2 C5 vs 5 DDs D2 C6:
Overall %: A. survives: 73.8% D. survives: 24.3% No one survives: 1.9%
OOB: 8 Subs A2 C6 vs 6 DDs D2 C8:
Overall %: A. survives: 88% D. survives: 11.1% No one survives: 0.9%

5 DDs A1 C6 vs 6 Subs D1 C5
Overall %: A. survives: 27.6% D. survives: 72.2% No one survives: 0.6%
OOB:6 DDs A2 C6 vs 8 Subs D1 C5
Overall %: A. survives: 59.3% D. survives: 39.7% No one survives: 1%

Yea unfortunately triplea can’t do a, b or c. I think It’ll have to be approached along the lines of Baron’s latest idea.

Yes to both of these Baron. @Baron:

To let planes attack directly Submarines (like Cruiser) clearly open new options to simplify interactions, if you can do it.
Turn on/off is a massive feature from my POV.  :-o :-o :-o
It would allow people to test both features: OOB complex and much simpler Fg vs Sub.

On Air battle, do you mean that it is not restricted to SBR?
You can introduce it over regular TTY with no IC on it? Really?!?
It would open kind of 1914 air combat option if the case…
Still, since it is an optional

They might just need a higher defense to keep 1 DD from pinning them. Let the planes take a wack at’em if they don’t submerge and it should help in big battles. Idk

@barney:

Yea unfortunately triplea can’t do a, b or c. I think It’ll have to be approached along the lines of Baron’s latest idea.

Yes to both of these Baron. @Baron:

To let planes attack directly Submarines (like Cruiser) clearly open new options to simplify interactions, if you can do it.
Turn on/off is a massive feature from my POV. �:-o :-o :-o
It would allow people to test both features: OOB complex and much simpler Fg vs Sub.

On Air battle, do you mean that it is not restricted to SBR?
You can introduce it over regular TTY with no IC on it? Really?!?
It would open kind of 1914 air combat option if the case…
Still, since it is an optional �

They might just need a higher defense to keep 1 DD from pinning them. Let the planes take a wack at’em if they don’t submerge and it should help in big battles. Idk

At least, option a) can still be tested when Subs are the only target in a given SZ.
It can be players enforced. At least in a F-2-F. Computer will not stop after first round for sure… Still possible to edit after combat solved.

From the author:
@knp7765:

A couple of house rules that my group uses:
1 - Defending Subs are allowed to submerge after first round of combat even with enemy destroyer(s) present.  Basically, the attacker gets to roll with whatever he/she is attacking with, including aircraft of course.  If they score hits on the subs, then tough luck.  If they miss some/all of the subs, then the subs can submerge and escape the battle.  I get the idea of destroyers cancelling the first strike capabilities of subs and spotting them for aircraft attack, but I have never liked the idea that a sub is “trapped” and can’t submerge just because an enemy destroyer is present.  In reality, subs COULD still evade destroyers, it was just a little harder.  Plus, I don’t like the idea of a single destroyer showing up with 10 fighters to wipe out a stack of subs.

well…it’s probably beyond my capabilities but you might be able to have a trigger where after 1 rd of combat the dd would turn into a non dd 2-2 unit. After combat another trigger would change it back.

Idk if it would let the new unit join the fight or not. Probably crash it. I guess I could give it a try. Take a little while for me to figure out how to word it. Be cool if it worked though

@Black_Elk:

Damn, pesky subs stalling us up� :-D

Alright, but can we spell it out a bit more, to tease out the implications?

I do see the merits of the proposal he just made for a C6 destroyer, but one thing I like about preserving the OOB cost structure for ships, is that it allows for a simple implementation of the shipyards tech if players want cheaper naval units across the board. Introducing a new cost for dds, would require a new wording for that tech option, and could also open issues with naval parity for all the other units relative to the DD, and end up a Pandora’s box.

I want to be deliberate here. Let’s try to fix the sub once and for all, like I’m hoping we just did for the strategic bomber.
:-D

From a play-test POV on Triple A, it is easier to add into roster a C6 Destroyer as a Destroyer Escort (DE) A1 D2 C6, 1 hit ASV.
While dropping Sub to 5 IPCs.
It will increase naval action.
And can be easier to make comparison.

Such DE D2 C6 will make better fleet padding defense than Sub for just 1 IPC higher (keeping it submerge for offence) and on offence DE A1 will be first casualty.

The Triple A parameters are much more complex as Barney seems to inform us.
The limitations have to be known to see if there is a way to improve it a bit, or not.

yea pretty much a pipe dream on the trigger idea : ). Seems as if this has been hashed out a lot over there with no real satisfactory answer. Veqryn said it would take months to do something so doubt any of the new guys tackle it either. Never know they seem to have quite a few more people working on stuff these days

@Black_Elk:

Somehow you just new it would come down to this damned submarine again hehe.

Dive! Dive!
It’s stands right next to the strategic bomber and the transport, as the unit which consistently causes the most headaches.

You can tell these 3 have been the most problematic units from the start, since they are the units which underwent the most significant changes since classic.

Subs keep drawing other units into their wake, even the inclusion of the destroyer as a brand new unit (and then creating a series of complex interactions between them) hasn’t been enough to solve the issue. The persistent naval nightmare.
:-D

I hate to come back to it again, when I feel like we’re so close to an interesting ruleset to test, but the real issue is that we have a unit which should be targeting economies as a combat unit.

I always liked the idea of a submarine that was purely focused on raiding. Not to throw us off course, but anyone for a more radical change to the unit?

Defenseless sub? Hehe

I feel like I’m standing on the edge of a black hole here, but is it possible that the sub gets the m3, with a special action? Removed from normal naval combat. Only does raids. Can be destroyed in the process (the way bombers are by aaagun fire), can be “intercepted” by destroyers somehow?

I mean it would be a huge break from the past. But G40 did finally introduce the sub raid as a general concept. Something that could work for both G40 and 1942.2?

At least, it worth to explore some unexplored possibilities.
If Triple A has too much limitation, maybe for Subs, DDs dynamics and fodder it worth to try something which is not exactly what we want (whatever it is) but can be similar enough to feel how it works, assuming it is just to get a general idea.

On side note, exploring DE case showed me how much layers of assumed HRs cannot be taken as it is.
Simply, in games I tested with Subs, it was always possible for them to escape on 2nd combat round.
So, I realised OOB it is not possible for Sub to do so as long as there is at least one Destroyer on other side.
Consequently, all Subs D1 unit could be use as fodder even when owner’s would have prefer to save them.

On defenseless Submarines, is it possible for Triple A to make it chosen last, even behind TP? Or just before TP? Of course, if it is the sole units in SZ, it remains as it is.

just found this quote from crazy german:

In reply to this post by BeornTheBold
I’ve thought about better sub rules for a while, and this post made me realize that there is an alternate way!

Its possible to make subs strategic bombers, but they would need to be air units. Its possible to ban them from entering land territories, and set carrierCost=0. This would mean that it can fly over enemy units of course, so if you made destroyers anti-air that only affects subs this would also allow to make the relationship work on a 1 to 1 ratio! Destroyers will NOT be able to stop subs from moving through totally, however they can shoot at subs that are passing by, and subs wouldn’t be able to submerge.

It sounds encouraging.

It’s gonna take some finetuning but it looks as if we have a winner  :-D  Just a quick rundown. As crazy german says they can’t block subs but they can shoot at them. Also you can set the attack factor at w/e you want and have it target as many subs as you want. If the sub attacks the DD directly then the DD aa will not fire and combat will resolve normally.

I haven’t messed with it too much yet but looks as if there’d be no first strike (wouldn’t matter with the DD present obviously) but Idk there might be a way around that. I’ll play with it some more and see if maybe I can get crazy german to chime in over at triplea. He seems to be fairly active.

:mrgreen:

Haven’t tested on convoy damage yet but I don’t see why it wouldn’t work on that

@Black_Elk:

Ps. Just down into the depths…
:-D

For 1942.2 what you’d want is a reason for the US or UK to send subs against the money islands and Japan. Japan in turn sends subs against Australia, India and maybe the Americas. On the Atlantic side you want Germany sending their subs towards UK/North America/Africa/Arctic.

What you don’t really want is the situation where UK/US are raiding the hell out Germany (the way they raid Italy in G40) to put the European Axis out of play, which is like the opposite of what we see in all the Battle of the Atlantic documentaries. I guess if this last is unavoidable, it could just be interpreted abstractly as a blockade, but using the sub unit for convenience?

How do we make it such that the sub is a better buy for the Germans vs UK, or the Americans vs Japan. Without up ending the situation, so you get the complete reverse happening? I don’t know, seems tricky.

In Global we’d want much the same, except that you’d have a few more players in the mix with Australia and Italy etc.

In tripleA terms, what is possible using either the sub raid mechanics in G40, or the familiar SBR/aaa fire system, but for submarines? Preferably something that could work on either map?

Can we make a sub unit that doesn’t create a hostile sea zone, and basically doesn’t interact with combat units at all, with the sole exception of the destroyer? Treat the destroyer kind of like the classic aa gun, but for subs? Here maybe the destroyer wouldn’t block subs at all, it just has a chance of “shooting them down” outright whenever subs are present or pass through a sz controlled by a destroyer.

Then subs could prowl around all over the place. I think the economic raid itself would need a built in risk, of the same sort faced by strategic bombers. Or if subs can target transports, maybe something similar, whenever they make such an action there is a risk of being destroyed.

Any ideas how we might get something like that to float?

G40 Convoy is difficult because Sub unit must be in a given Convoy SZ and wait until the opponent’s end turn.
If sunk, nothing happen.
Assuming we cannot introduce my Convoy HR, or anything similar, which is too far from Triple A, we must tweak or bend just a bit actual rules and mechanics. Example, more rolls than 2 dices. Eliminating some units from raiding possibility, etc.

Thinking out loud, what could happen if
Submarine have 1 hit, A2 first strike D1 first strike C5 M2-3,
taken as last casualty amongst warships, just before TP.
Player vs player can easily do it (enforce it) in casualty selection, always choosing any other unit before Subs.
That way, Sub hit’s will be allocated to other warships first.
It can be rationalize as the more hidden unit is not a priority target.
Even amongst planes with DDs attacking surface vessels and Subs, surface warships are much easier to locate.
Taken last allows for a 5 IPCs Sub unit because it cannot pad any surface fleet.

So, even without Triple A rule change about Planes doesn’t need Destroyer to hit Subs.
The DD requirements is just adding more Sub elusiveness.
On large fleet combat, it is possible that attacking Subs cannot be targeted at all by defending Fgs simply because in earlier game rounds all Destroyers have been taken as casualty.
And before, all attacking casualty would have been larger surface vessel.

So, Destroyer remains as it is.
Submarines can now also be on 5 IPCs sweet spot, and in friendly SZ is somehow padded by all other surface vessels.
This increase is attractiveness, hence more Naval actions.
No more a padding unit as it is OOB.
Planes still needs DDs to sink them.
That imply that if only planes are attacking Subs and TPs, TPs will be sunk as OOB.
Still better elusiveness than OOB.

It can be Face-2-face enforced.
Maybe someone can tweek Triple A AI casualty selection to.

I edited the above post. They won’t go on land so they won’t bomb any factories. You’ll probably need to tweak some numbers to get it just right.

One thing that’s a potential big problem is w/e there at on the water they could be attacked. Not sure if there’s away around it. I think there is

@barney:

just found this quote from crazy german:

In reply to this post by BeornTheBold
I’ve thought about better sub rules for a while, and this post made me realize that there is an alternate way!

Its possible to make subs strategic bombers, but they would need to be air units. Its possible to ban them from entering land territories, and set carrierCost=0. This would mean that it can fly over enemy units of course, so if you made destroyers anti-air that only affects subs this would also allow to make the relationship work on a 1 to 1 ratio! Destroyers will NOT be able to stop subs from moving through totally, however they can shoot at subs that are passing by, and subs wouldn’t be able to submerge.

It sounds encouraging.

It’s gonna take some finetuning but it looks as if we have a winner� :-D� Just a quick rundown. As crazy german says they can’t block subs but they can shoot at them. Also you can set the attack factor at w/e you want and have it target as many subs as you want. If the sub attacks the DD directly then the DD aa will not fire and combat will resolve normally.

I haven’t messed with it too much yet but looks as if there’d be no first strike (wouldn’t matter with the DD present obviously) but Idk there might be a way around that. I’ll play with it some more and see if maybe I can get crazy german to chime in over at triplea. He seems to be fairly active.

:mrgreen:

Haven’t tested on convoy damage yet but I don’t see why it wouldn’t work on that

Is it possible to put somekind of IC in water, near a given tty?
Here I’m thinking like a minor IC or Base (6 IPCs dmg max) or more preferably 4 IPCs dmg (like Karelia in 1942.2)
If that so.
It can be player enforced that damage in IC SZ near owned TTy must be totally repaired in purchase and repair phase. Then may buy units. Still cannot built unit there of course.
This would allow some kind of Sub attacking IC in SZ, similar to SBR.

yes and no on the IC Baron. It has some problems but I think Frostion got it to work