What's the usual bid?

Axis stacked map and in dice games as well, it takes more than a few upsets to give the allies a shot at winning

I dont play allies below 15 period. Also the reason allies get crushed is because transports do not roll anymore + southern europe cannot build 6 guys like it used to so the only option is to get france… problem is usa goes after UK which totally sucks from a d day perspective.

So you pretty much need a huge bid 15-25 ipc just to have a real game.

I mean there are too many ways to lose as the allies, you lose egypt and that is just friggen great because the axis make the same money as the allies, GG.

Plus the allies got hit with tons of nerfs, cruiser in medit sea instead of bship, etc. seazones around uk is big problem too. TUV differential used to be much higher for the allies.
~

Then there is the reason why most people hate this game. 2 subs staring down at transport dds right out the gate, it is super cheesy when it works and it is expected to work, you can split them for some serious gambling… I hate it when people do that and win both battles, so annoying.

Basically allies need a 15+ bid to have a 50/50 chance at winning the game. Russia was not compensated properly for all the nerf.

You know what… I do not take allies below 18 now. If it is a 9 vc instead of a 10+ vc game… 24-30 ipc or 2 russia turns, because after Karelia and India the axis win at russia or hawaii, which means you need to at least take france every round while holding russia, go pacific while holding russia, or lose.

It’s a pretty tough grind, I think the best thing America has going for it is the dead drop into Finland. It’s the only repeating transport launch route that maintains the line on Berlin, but still far enough away from the German core that it’s harder to hit with fighters. The problem is that the UK can’t build directly into sz 3, they can shuck from sz 3, but their transports have to already be in place!

USA can shuttle between sz 3 and sz 10 with their transports, leaving their defensive fleet in place, but you have to bring enough heat with USA with the first wave of transports launched to overcome a German Karelia stack, or else Scandinavia is just a death trap. Still I think its easier to operate out of sz 3, rather than sz 8, sz 6 or sz 5, mainly because it puts the fleet further away from Berlin based fighters, while still being in striking range of the German capital, Karelia and Baltic states, and still giving you an option on France.

Ps. I think UK could probably be a wrecking machine with 18 additional ipcs.

pps. I prefer the long game, play to concession. VCs don’t really do it for me. All roads lead to Moscow as far as I’m concerned. I think I’d balk at the Axis trying to claim the win at 9, if one of those 9 VCs didn’t include the Russian capital haha.

I think at 15 Russia starts to get scary good regardless of VC.  And Karelia starts to become holdable or defendable.  OOB Karelia is tradable for at least the first 3 rds, so adding 5 units adds at least a couple rds even if you play conservatively.  Heck that might be better.

Russia starts with:
12 inf, 3 rt, 4 arm 2 ftrs.

Fin + Bal + Bel + Wrus have
10 inf, 1 rt, 2 arm.

At 15 ipc with 17 inf, 3 rt, 4 arm, 2 ftrs  You can take out Fin, Bal, Bel and Wrus.  Ger has to use its trn to trade Kar at that point.  You may even get to keep Fin and then take Nor on R2, assuming UK was able to sink the trn on UK 1.

At 16, 17, 18 you can start to add another rt or two which puts the German trn in Sz 5 in play b/c it might free up your ftrs.  Meaning you are definitely holding Kar on R1 and 2 and gaining additional 3 ipc from Fin/Nor.  Once Ger gets up there at rd 3.  UK can land in Nor.  Ger is trading Kar on say G3-4, but UK is now in Nor/Fin protecting 3 IPCs for Russia.

And there is also the option to just use the extra inf and go heavy into Ukr and work on setting up the UK-US/Russian can-opener.  If you get any number of tanks into Ukr, UK/US boms can take out small inf stacks in say Pol and you can just blitz your armor right to Berlin if Germany isn’t prepared for it.  The can-opener is more of a gambit though, but it forces G to defend Berlin a little heavier then they’d want to early in the game.

Overall Russia can be extremely powerful if you get them up to 8-10+ armor.  I know the cost of 6 ipc, but I think its gotten to the point where not enough players use them so they are actually almost underrated at this point.  The Mobility is HUGE in defending Moscow and Russia as a whole.  8-10+ arm in Wrus and/or Mos can keep the Axis off your back for a long long time.

Germany can usually hold karelia against a russia without any bid units, The japan bomber makes it to defend if necessary. Usually you get 2-3 hits defending on west russia which is all you need, unless Russia buys armor or something.

After losing West Russia on a fairly conservative opening Russian move; I am inclined to agree.  It might seem like whining, and it probably is however, losing the game in the first round because of a 52-46-2 dice roll isn’t really a lot of fun (I finally tried the Battle Calculator).  Stacking West Russia basically forces Germany to hit it and gives them a target.  It’s a bit like playing Monopoly with someone that always lands on the expensive properties, builds hotels and you land on them each time around.

I understand the idea of strafing however it doesn’t make any sense to me to roll against a superior defensive force in the hopes of getting a good roll and hurting them.  One bad roll and you are worse off than you started.  Even average dice isn’t any good.  It can work if you could have Russia/Britain/America all hit to weaken and take out a larger force however in the early game, it just seems like wishful thinking.

I enjoy learning new strategies however this just really reinforces my opinion that the game isn’t really playable out of the box.  I will review other games to see what sort of strategies are used.

Kirk S.

Use cow setup for an even game.

Yeah you are forced into a ukraine + west russia attack.

@Cow:

Yeah you are forced into a ukraine + west russia attack.

This is the wrong attack if you want to deazone Kar as Russia for as long as possible.

Don’t get me wrong I agree 100% Germany will hold Kar eventually BUT attacking Ukr is bad for Russia if they want to delay it.

The reasons are:

1)  When you attack Ukr as Russia you pull 3 inf, 1 rt (armor don’t count cause they can still hit Kar from Cauc) that could be going to Wrus (to deadzone Kar) and instead killing them in the south too far away.
2)  Even if you hit on a good starfe or attack you are killing German troops that can’t reach Kar until G2.
3)  Germany can even counter Ukr with units that won’t even be making it up to Kar until G3 so it doesn’t slow down their stacking potential.

Essentially you are putting yourself out of position when most players as Germany make Kar their early target.

Whereas the much better play is Wrus + Belo:

1)  It is a safer battle, 3 inf, 2 ftrs vs. 3 inf.
2)  Any surviving Russian units are in position to deadzone Kar if G tries a G1 move ignoring Bel.
3)  If Germany counters Bel they will have to counter Bel with units that could otherwise make it to Kar on G2, thus limiting their early stack.

It may seem like a small difference, but it actually does matter, particularly when every unit or hit point counts.

UKR on R1 is bad if you intend to deadzone Kar for any length of time.

Now if your Russia strategy is to take Ukr and threaten a can-opener that is one thing, but in generally I’m not a big fan of the Ukr attack and that dates back to Revised.  Too much can go wrong and on this map it puts you out of position from the early G target of Kar.

An 8 inf buy followed by 3 inf, 3 arm can keep G out of Kar on G2.  You can also do 4 inf, 3 rt, and still follow up with armor on your Russia 2 buy.  But I’ve found when I run the numbers the advantage of having the extra rt is negligible when compare to just getting 8 units on the board especially if you plan to follow up with armor.  So currently I max out Moscow production with 8 units on R1 and “see how things go” when I get to R2, and see how offensive power I need to avoid the G2 stack of Kar.

Any reasonable bid from say 6-12, gives Russia some extra fodder to deadzone Kar through R3.  Again it gets dicey by G3, meaning they maybe able to hold, but that depends on what G bought on G1-2. Did they buy more planes, any ships, etc.

You dead zone Karelia with a Ukraine attack.

The belo+wr is problem. It gives up Caucasus which is even worse than Karelia.

@Cow:

The belo+wr is problem. It gives up Caucasus which is even worse than Karelia.

No Cauc is a trap.  G can’t hold it on G1.  Russia leaves it empty.  Then reclaims on R2.  If UK doesn’t have pressing needs they can reclaim it for you with 1 inf, 1 ftr, 1 bom or some variation.

Russia doesn’t need 12 build slots so it’s okay to trade Cauc in rd 1.

The Russian open will be:

3 inf, 2 ftrs to Bel
9 inf, 3 rt, 4 arm to Wrus

Take Bel with 1-2 inf, take Wrus with 7 inf+

Placement of 7-8 units on Moscow (depending on your purchase).  Move Eastern inf to Arch and Mos respectively.  You can move 1 inf to Sze but I like the Alternative of 1 arm due to mobility.

On R2 you trade Bel/Ukr, take back Cauc with minimal inf and arm place 8 unit build in Mos.

At this point Cauc is closed off from Ger.

Any bid units would go to your Wrus stack.  So a 9 bid would leave approx. 10 inf in Wrus.

Your rd 2 projected power (no bid)

Against Kar:
9 inf (2 from arch) , 3 rt, 4 arm, 2 ftrs  (OP 36 - 18 units) 33 - 17 if you used an arm for cover in Sze.

Best Germany can do is:
6 inf, 4 arm  That’s only DP of 24 - 10 units.
Might be a +/- unit or two in there, but Ger can’t go Heavy to Kar on G1.

Germany could try and stack Ukr heavy on G1 as a response, but they won’t be able to get past the Russian stack in Wrus and new units in Mos to actually hold Cauc.  Maybe cauc gets deadzoned but Russia has the advantage b/c newly placed units are immediately at the front to prevent a G Cauc stack.  Whereas with Karelia any new Russian inf/rt must first be moved to Wrus.

It would be interesting, but I wouldn’t want to risk opening up the North to the Allies.  The US can get 4 units to Fin on US 3 and UK can follow in Rd 4.  Then you might have to deal with all three Allies in Mos.

It might be better to just wait out Russia and take Kar first with Ger so you can cut off ground troop reinforcements.

Lots of options on both sides.

How is caucasus a trap? He can hold ukraine and keep trading for it. He can trade for Karelia and Caucasus.

Oops, yeah.  I meant if Germany tried to hold it on G1, it would be a trap b/c the Wrus + Mos stack would crush it.

Yes, it could be deadzoned and you may have to trade it.  But Russia doesn’t need the 4 build slots, and alternatively you can have UK take some of the heat for you, by using a Per inf+ planes knock out the trading German inf thus preserving your Russian troops and even possibly letting you build 4 units there if you needed it.

Depending on how things go, it can be possible for Russia to stack both Wrus and Cauc after a rd or two of trading, then you don’t need to worry about it.  It just depends on how Germany is moving their troops.  Are they all beelining the southern route or are there some going for Kar/Bel?

In most cases I’ve see Germany choose to deadzone Ukr instead and take the free turn at Cauc in rd 1, but after that focus on getting Kar.

Deadzone caucasus better, easier to attack west russia G2 from ukraine than defend against russian at karelia. Bomb russia easier.  Lots of things go well.

A common thing I like to do is use transport to ship units into ukraine and abadon africa and bshippy to sink cruiser.

Germany can buy 3+ armor if it wants to hold karelia G2. It is really easy. Lots of options, especially if you pullt he armor from africa into ukraine.

18 may be a bit high. Think about it, in a game with full placement bids, you could just buy 3 subs with UK.

Then attack sz37 with 4 submarines (only subs, no surface ships.)

Its over 75% odds to the attacker. And you don’t even need to face the Japanese fighters.

Your subs smoke the Battleship and Carrier at odds, dropping 34 enemy TUV, but without totally screwing yourself in the process!
:-D

At least there is a very good chance you will sink their second carrier deck, forcing the fighters to land in East Indies, which jacks up their opening mobility.

Then you can save the rest of your UK fleet in the pacific to bounce around and murder elsewhere, content that you’ve done your part by blasting the ���� out of Japan, for a minimal cost.

You still have a fighter and a cruiser to attack sz 61, and Japan has no way to hit your carrier and transport off Africa, since his fighters are screwed and forced to park on land instead of at sea. If the destroyer in sz 61 is killed, any subs that survive the sz 37 engagement can’t be hit on J1.

This move would likely allow both UK transports to escape as well, since your Aussie transport would still have a cruiser covering it, and your Indian transport would have a Carrier.

Even if you dud in the opening surprise strike attack, and the Japanese defender gets two hits, you could still dive, and as long as the destroyer in sz 61 is handled (critical anyway in my view) then 2 subs live to fight another day. And nobody could say you didn’t take a shot at something with your bid, its better than a 3 out of 4 chance that you prevail.

So yeah I’ll take the Allies at 18 ipc for sure heheh ;)
What do you think?
Sneaky play right right
:-D

The 007 sub strike!

“Live and Let Dive”

:-D

If we get to play against each other in the tournament, we should give it a try.

Take a look at this save game and help me understand how this is supposed to work…  I even took a bomber bid.  had 8 inf, 2 art, 4 arm, 2 AA in West Russia and lost it all to 7 inf, 1 art, 3 arm, 5 fig, 1 bmb.  British navy gone as well.  the only thing that didn’t work out for Germany was 2 sub vs dst, 2 trn which should have been an easy win.  Time for me to use the battle calculator a bit more.

That’s a tough one man. Your opponent made a strong opening, and your fighters are far afield.

Gotta try to clap back on him I suppose.
Rush the Med maybe, or reclaim your home waters  :-D

I don’t want to give too much advice if the game is ongoing, but its clear you need to turtle up Moscow and pray for snow.

@craykirk:

Take a look at this save game and help me understand how this is supposed to work…  I even took a bomber bid.  had 8 inf, 2 art, 4 arm, 2 AA in West Russia and lost it all to 7 inf, 1 art, 3 arm, 5 fig, 1 bmb.  British navy gone as well.  the only thing that didn’t work out for Germany was 2 sub vs dst, 2 trn which should have been an easy win.  Time for me to use the battle calculator a bit more.

You opening was fine. Your opponent just had a 2 standard deviation outcome on west russia R1. Options are to play low luck or not attack with 2 inf, 1 art, 1 bomber. Play low luck if you want to emphasize skill in determining the outcome. Play dice if you want volatility and risk management.

In low luck I would just attack it with one more fighter…

I have never lost 1942 2nd edition as the axis. The usual bid the allies get ranges from 16-30… The hardest was 30 ipc bid 1 unit per territory sprinkled around the map. I always do 1 unit per territory…

3 subs is fine, so you pressure the pacific half well. Germany is still going to roll Russia.  My scientifically proven balance changes are good, keeps radical stuff like this from happening, otherwise you have to have 20-30 ipcs 1 unit per terr. All in one place makes the game much more linear and boring.

You can run a similar 007 attack with just 3 subs (instead of 4) for 12 ipcs on the bid.

That’s one sub in sz 35, and the other in sz 39 (which keeps to the one bid unit per space rule.) In that case your odds to prevail in the subs only attack are just shy of 50/50, but statistically you are still going to kill the Japanese carrier the majority of the time, and you may even get the opportunity to dive and survive with a sub.

In LL a 4 sub attack is a sure shot, you win the battle every time. But that requires full placement bid rules (allowing more than 1 sub into a single sea zone) which isn’t the way I normally play. But since the current tournament went that way, I thought I’d mention the 4 sub (subs only) attack against sz37.

In LL 3 subs is much narrower, but its also still cheaper than engaging the Japanese fighters with your surface ships directly. Leaves you a bit of flexibility to decide which theater to press, since the Indian carrier and Egypt fighter could go on the prowl, along with the Aussie cruiser.

You can jack up sz37 without giving up your attack on sz 61.

1 cruiser and 1 fighter to the sz 61 battle is also a guarantee in LL (if you play that way), so your sz 35 spitfire can be certain to cover the flying tiger, no problem.

I think its a nice attack, low risk a with solid shot on enemy TUV destroyed. The option to dive if things go terribly, but a potentially powerful payoff if things go as they should. Russia might get rolled sure, but there’s also a bit less support coming to Germany from Japan, so UK might be able to make up the difference there, if they act fast enough.

Or as you say, could always just go balls to the wall in the Pacific, giving USA a much better chance of busting up the IJN  :-D
The other sub breaker would be against the German battleship in the med, which also seems promising.

But I kind of dig the submarine solo sneak attack against sz 37.

Double sub bid,
007 style! hehe