Germany Taking India - Go for Pacific Win?

The Hessian

Hi NoMercy,

i don’t think that the idea is “completely dump”. If Germany can guard the ‘Fortress Europe’ against UK, USA & the Russians, it seams like a nice idea to send a strong mobile force south against the British via Caucasus and Persia. In the MidEast there are waiting some NOs and an minor ally for you. And India might not be as heavily guarded as Moscow.
The greatest problems for the axis might be the long German supply line to the next own IC and the the ability of the IJN to keep the US-Navy at bay.

CWO Marc

@NoMercy:

It does feel a little weird going a bit against historical routes with these moves

It doesn’t go entirely against history, in the sense that Germany, Italy and Japan had agreed on paper to divide the world at a longitude of 70 degrees east, a line that runs through India and the Indian Ocean. I think the agreement was a secret protocol appended to the Tripartite Pact. If you look up the Wikipedia article on “Axis Powers” and scroll towards the end of the article you’ll see a map which illustrates this. (“German and Japanese direct spheres of influence at their greatest extents in Autumn 1942. Arrows show planned movements to an agreed demarcation line at 70Â° E, which was, however, never even approximated.”) The “never even approximated” part is quite correct, and for all practical purposes Japan and the European Axis powers fought separate wars in separate parts of the world, with little to no strategic coordination.

The Hessian

CWO Marc:

Do you know any sources concerning this agreement besides this Wikipedia article – or the linked article “Axis power negotiations on the division of Asia during World War II” – and the references given there?

Thanks in advance,
Lars

CWO Marc

@The:

Do you know any sources concerning this agreement besides this Wikipedia article – or the linked article “Axis power negotiations on the division of Asia during World War II” – and the references given there?

I think I have it at home in one of the appendices of the book “Reluctant Allies: German-Japanese Naval Relations in World War II”, but I’ll see if I can dig up the text online.

CWO Marc

Here’s the text, attached in two parts.

ItIsILeClerc

Considering an allied non-KJF approach:

If Japan can keep India isolated + grab Sydney/Hawaii, the Germans can(and should) take India without much Japanese help. Taking Australia/Hawaii is such a heavy drain on Japanese resources (even if they make >>80IPCs/turn), that the Japanese will be weaker against India/Russia (and perhaps China too). Unless the USA goes full KGF (which is a mistake, but that’s another thread).

But that is the idea anyway, the reason why Germany takes India (as far as I know). Japan cannot take India, keep it, and at the same time take Hawaii/Sydney on time.

Russia must be watched closely though, as they will regain strength with this approach. If the axis timing is right, all Russia can do in Europe is to knock on the doors to Berlin, but those doors will remain shut. The danger lies in Russia liberating China and also exorcise Japan from one or more VCs on Mainland Asia…

General Veers

Only defense for this is having the UK player -knowing Sea Lion is off the table- build ICs in Egypt and Persia and load up ground units there. Someone needs to crunch the numbers to see what kind of offensive force Germany can get to the Caucasus by the 4th or 5th turn.

The Hessian

Thanks very much CWO Marc!

CWO Marc

@The:

Thanks very much CWO Marc!

My pleasure. There’s a line of narration in one of Frank Capra’s WWII “Why We Fight” films which states that the Axis powers had staked a claim to the whole world (“There you are, gents – all they left us was Shangri-La…and they’d claim that too if hey know where it was.”), but as we can see from these documents this wasn’t actually the case: they simply wanted the whole world minus the land territory of the Americas. :-D

The Hessian

“… and tomorrow the world.”

cyanight

By turn 5 you can have 15 mech and 16 tanks in Iraq using the “Angry Bird” strategy.

ItIsILeClerc

@General:

Someone needs to crunch the numbers to see what kind of offensive force Germany can get to the Caucasus by the 4th or 5th turn.

I did this once and if it is of any help, this is roughly the force I mustered to march into Calcutta(through Afghanistan to speed up the game 1 turn):

30INF + 15ART + 25ARM + 30 MECH + 5FTR + 5TAC + 2STR.

Like Cyanight stated, with a very bomber-heavy German build this could be like 15/15 and probably 20-30STR, 5FTR and 5TAC.

Note that these are rough numbers (out of scratch). Basically, it is the entire ‘eastern front’ army that marches on, bypassing Moscow. Obviously this means Russia will break out but that does not matter much if they (or any other ally for that matter) cannot throw a spanner in the works anymore.

General Veers

Thanks cyanight and LeClerc, that is some serious muscle. Plus Italy can just pounce on whatever blockers the UK can desperately place along the way. In addition as long as the threat to swing north is there the Russian player can’t leave Moscow undefended if he’s going into Europe or trying to race into China to possibly steal Hong Kong or Shanghai.

calvinhobbesliker

@cyanight:

By turn 5 you can have 15 mech and 16 tanks in Iraq using the “Angry Bird” strategy.

What’s the Angry Bird strategy?

NoMercy

Yeah I don’t think there is an easy way for the UK player to defend this type of move/strategy by Germany.
Just because it will look like a normal push against Moscow.

I think the trick is just maybe to get a 1-2 extra transports with Japan here and there to load up a move against Australia so that the Axis can time it right and grab a 6 VC win on the Pacific side.

I think any game is much easier if know all your opponents exact moves (like the real war when the allies decoded a lot of the planned moves/attacks of the axis).

This strategy would look more or less like a normal game for the first 4-5 turns (Russia has to defend/try and stall and the allies will need to try and help Moscow and or keep Italy in checked) while you know the grand plan is go for a Pacific Win.

I like to just keep the opponents off guard as much as possible to give them more things to think about/defend against.

calvinhobbesliker

@NoMercy:

I like to just keep the opponents off guard as much as possible to give them more things to think about/defend against.

It’s great that the Axis can try all these crazy strategies and likely succeed against Allies who haven’t seen them before; I just wish the Allies could do similar things…I find it a bit unfair that the Axis get to have all the fun.

aequitas-et-veritas

@calvinhobbesliker:

@cyanight:

By turn 5 you can have 15 mech and 16 tanks in Iraq using the “Angry Bird” strategy.

What’s the Angry Bird strategy?

A neutral crush performed by Axis on Round3.
Nicely named by cyanight.
Look up “Neutral crush playbool topic” sir.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=36131.15
:-)

ItIsILeClerc

Ai, and here I was thinking Angry Bird was just another name for Dark Skies.
Apparently memory failed me there ;-)

General Veers

I guess once the cat’s out of the bag the US could try to scrounge up all available fighters to Sydney but once Japan lands anywhere in Australia with a huge landing force I don’t see how they can be stopped.

NoMercy

@calvinhobbesliker:

@NoMercy:

It’s great that the Axis can try all these crazy strategies and likely succeed against Allies who haven’t seen them before; I just wish the Allies could do similar things…I find it a bit unfair that the Axis get to have all the fun.

I think that is just the way the game is, the Axis are the “aggressor” and need to attack to win; while the allies are the defender and need to react to the situations while keeping the big picture in mind. I think the allies are a lot of fun as well; with the UK being a lot of fun and involved everywhere and very important to the overall allied success.

Germany Taking India - Go for Pacific Win?

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