To Taranto, or not to Taranto

Sink the ships UK1.

Comparatively, Italy loses more based on comparative income to the UK by losing the core of her navy on I1.  Its going to cost Italy multiple turns to build a smaller navy going forward compared to what the UK can build in Canada, S.Africa and later in London.

If that is not enough of a compelling reason to trade hardware, I do not know what is.

Never leave the Italian navy intact, as if they build on it the allies will need to invest further throughout the game to address the threat of a 1-2 punch of Italian navy with a German SS / Aircraft to mop up the survivors.

If you can trade starting hardware and only need to build 3 CV and 1-2 BB to support an initial landing vs needing 4 CV and 4 BB to survive a 1-2 punch… which would you choose?  I’d rather have the flexibility of spending later knowing the Italians are on their “island” for the remainder of the game and the german naval defense is a token defense, not a legitimate threat.

Sink the ships, take the card out of the Axis hand.  Its economic strategy.

Do you use your Mediterranean units during UK1 to destroy the Italian fleet in sea zone #97?

The true answer to this is simply: it depends!

IF German player looses a lot of the Luftwaffe, then you may skip Taranto, destroy the Italian DD plus tranny and meet in sz 92 if you’re still in possesion of vital ships like the Cruiser sz 91,one or two DD’s from sz 106 and/or sz 109 and are able to hold and reinforce Gibraltar.
To hold as long as possible Gibraltar and wait for US Forces is the key in this scenario and shutting down the Italian fleet in the Meds untill US forces arrive so Allied players are able to crush them (how you will proceed is up to you).

BUT:

If German player has still the majority of the Luftwaffe, then go and try for Taranto.
Ignoring the German Luftwaffe will cause, that they simply fly over the sz92 meeting (Teaparty) and sink all UK ships within a few minutes!

A Taranto is only good for if you planning on taking out Italian Fleet quick, but you will need lots of Airpower from London.

The Teaparty is only good for to keep Italys economy and Seaunits in Check untill the US arrives.

I learned it the hard way!

I hear you aequitas!
I’d like to add that ‘Taranto’ depends on if the UK can hold on to Gibraltar untill the USA arrives… This is a very difficult situation but in short it boils down to:

• Italy must NOT be able to take Gibraltar, because Germany can then fly in and sail its fleet into the med.

• Italy must not be able to take Gibraltar…

I think as long as the UK can prevent Italy from taking Gibraltar, virtually anything they do (Taranto or not), will be OK. But Gibraltar must not fall in Italian hands!
I learned that the hard way as well. Not 100% sure about this but I now see loosing Gibraltar and not being able to retake it as a game looser, worse than loosing Egypt for a while. Perhaps the allies can threaten invasions via Iceland (UK NB?) or SZ 108, but with Gibraltar firmly in Axis hands (imagine where Italy and Germany can go from there), I’m not so sure that can work. On the other hand I never tried it as well so maybe it works a lot better than I anticipate atm. Personally I’d love to get  feedback on this by some1 with experience on this, but it may be something for a different thread.

Germany taking Gibraltar is OK if the USA can destroy them there (GER still on the wrong side of the Rock and no air can fly in before the USA attacks).
Did I already mention that Italy must not be able to take Gibraltar ;-)?

So I think any Uk action in the med depends on whether they can hold Italy out of the Rock for as long as the USA is out of the war. And it becomes very complicated and hard to do if the USA is held out of the war until US4. But that may be for another thread as well.

ItIsILeClerc - Yep I have been advocating that Italy must take Gib as well.  Its what got me started on attacking the neutrals with Germany/Italy on Turn 2.  Although I don’t believe that strategy can always work based upon your opponent.  Create a new thread and we can discuss it in detail.

Ahoy Cyanight!

Sound plan. I’ll create one right away  8-).

For me it depends on several things. I will almost always hit sz97 (especially with a sub bid) and it takes a lot for me not to go after it. Factors I consider:

• Did the Germans take air losses on G1?
• Did the RAF take losses on G1?
• Did Germany buy ground units and/or DOW Russia?
• How much of the Kriegsmarine is still afloat on UK1 and did Germany buy more ships?
• Did Germany send air to SITA?
• Did I or do I plan on spending big in the Atlantic with US in the first couple rounds?
• What round does it look like Japan’s going to DOW in the Pac?
• What do I know about my opponent? Is he a strong player? Does he favor SL? etc

@Whitshadw

Nice idea, but you will lose this navy to the Luftwaffe who can wipe it out on G2. Our german player always takes S-France on G1, thus having a landing space for his planes.(fighter and Tac bomb from south italy he places their on G1 and he buys a carrier on G2 so he can land the german fighters in SZ93. Isn’t it better to buy an airbase on gibralter on UK1 so you can scramble your fighters?

Kudos to @Whitshadw, I have not liked Taranto, but never find better options for the UK fleet. Gibastion never really worked for me…

Since the plan does not detail the UK1 buy, an airbase for Gibraltar is a possible supplement to this strategy, but in general it is not necessary.

It would only be necessary, if as @Cornwallis mentioned S. France is taken G1.
Without S. France or Algeria, there is no place to land before the UK fleet can escape to the Atlantic if necessary–i.e. full Luftwaffe deployment to Med+ whatever German subs work south.

The key for this to me was the DD blocker, with the French it keeps the UK fleet safe from direct attack by the Italians. Although the Italians won’t win, they can’t soften up the fleet for the Luftwaffe coup de grace–specifically hurting the CV. It also ensures the amphib assault fails, because now there is no shore bombard attack.

All this is great, BUT there is the downside that Italy can move all units in Africa to Egypt since there will be no air units to support a counter attack. They can only land UK2 in Egypt to defend.
Assuming UK turtles in Egypt, and Italy moves all-in. Then with the 2 transports, Italy could bring enough units to win Egypt on I2. Sure the UK fleet can move back to SZ98 to block, but now you’re losing the fleet again to a lesser navy and Egypt is endangered.

You gained nothing for your positioning except probably lost a DD blocker. Depending on how the Italians are spread out after attacking the French fleet (if necessary due to Vichy rules if active), you might try Taranto 2.0, but that is not as good as the original attack, if the Italian are in SZ97 with 1 BB, 2 CA, 1DD and 3 ftrs to scramble.

So I’ve saved my fleet but lost Egypt, not sure that is a good thing.

@surfer @Cornwallis

You have to taranto…

But the loss of just 2 fighters makes Sea-Lion a certain thing. Germany can take London if it wants post-Taranto. Even if all the fighters stay home, its still pretty close odds OOB. And if you don’t stop Italy you’re spending all your $$ and units for several turns, pinned down and stuck in the UK.

If you don’t break Italy, it can just pile onto the sea-lion.

@taamvan Yes it’s the least bad of two options so you have to do it. I have tried all other options and sooner or later i find myself confronted with a Taranto 2.0

I’m not convinced…Taranto always seems to lead to an Italian occupation of Egypt from my experience…which consumes all the UK expenditure to eject them.
Even if taranto goes well, every ship and plane in sz 97 will be sunk by the combined Italian/german counterstrike…Uk might have a bomber, tac, and 2 fighters sitting in Malta at the best. Italy then buys another tt, surrounds Cairo with its African army and overwhelms the UK garrison I2
With Gibastion (which always needs an AB bought) all available planes and ships are concentrated. The AB allows all planes to fly to Cairo if needed…two tts are there as well to reinforce either London or Cairo. The whole fleet and all fighters can relocate to the channel if needed to block any sealion attempt. If the luftwaffe want to mass airstrike the fleet, then yes it will be sunk but so will nearly all the German air guaranteeing Russian survival. The Italian fleet is too weak even when concentrated to move far from the protection of sz97 or sz95.
Killing it will be harder later on but when the US join in the Italian fleets days are numbered…US/Uk subs and air will soon finish it off.

Thats my two pennorth of thought anyway!

@wizmark i agree with you and very often aply that tactic. But almost every time i do this i have to do Taranto 2.0 sooner or later and have to overinvest in the Med with UK. Italy with two tpt can be unpredictable,especially with a german fleet buy or luftwaffe support.

@wizmark If a ship survives taranto, and the 91 cruiser or another ship survives the other battle (dd+tt) the italians are screened out and cannot amphib the surviving bomber, tac and fighter(s) that are on Syria.

Gibbastion is a great alternative, but the Italians + Germans are compelled to attack that.

@taamvan Well, for the Italian attack to have any hope Germany has to take S France. Otherwise it is a sub, dd, 2 cruisers, a bb and bomber against dd, 2 cruisers, 1 carrier, 4 fighters and a tac. 18 strength against 29. if the dd from 109 joins strength is 31 Even with the fighters it is 24 against 29/31. Uk will do more damage to Italy overall than taranto, killing all the Italian fleet as well as the Italian air whilst not losing any more units than from the counter into 97 and 96 from the axis. And to be honest if germany takes S France then i am leaving a dd in sz 94 to block. And again if G sends the whole luftwaffe to deal with the UK fleet then that is an allied strategic win.

I agree that I1 Italy cannot take egypt after Taranto…but by I2 the north african army and the ethiopians can hit cairo…all the air can hit as they can land in alex and if Italy has bough another tt that is another 4 units to amphib in. UK cant get enough troops and air to stop this and there is no fleet left to block. Land a few german air to stiffen the garrison, ferry a G inf across and axis is making an extra 12 ipcs a round from egypt. Very hard for Uk on 28 ipc to counter this.

@wizmark If you taranto, they just take London. I’ve posed the gibstack as a solution to that dynamic and will continue to try and make it work (by including your details)

I don’t see how Gibbastion stops Italy from taking Egypt I2. From SZ92, they can’t stop Italy from rolling all units towards Egypt I1. Since they have 2 trannies, the additional 4 guys will stomp Egypt.

Now there are IMHO some strategically / tactically bad choices UK has on UK2 to stop this.
a) put 2 blockers - SZ96 and SZ99. Only 1 DD so the other is a cruiser? This just bleeds the UK fleet and lets the Luftwaffe eventually pick off the entire fleet for cheap
b) Move back to SZ98 to block. But since Alexandria was taken I1, the Italians can attack with impunity and let the Germans finish off what lives. Especially since no airbase anymore…
c) Or you bought one UK2 so that you can move to SZ98. Maybe this works out as you probably can stop the Italians this turn, but 30 IPCs the first 2 turns on 2 airbases, all aircraft in Egypt or SZ98. Sea-lion? Or how about Italy takes Gibraltar now that you vacated it, and Germany reinforces. Ideally they had bought a CV G1 or G2, and with Gibraltar are ready to stop the US invasion and possibly enter the Med to help the Italians.
d) Taranto 2.0, but now the Italians are consolidated so that is less appetizing.
e) wait for Italy to advance on Egypt with invasion fleet. Watch Egypt fall, but then sink the Italian fleet. However, assuming you take a couple of hits and German forward deploys a/c to Italy, the Luftwaffe will make short work of you and land in Egypt.

The only real option is hole up in SZ92 (or maybe leave the Med – Italy $$) watch Egypt fall, and support the US arrivals to Africa and hope the combined might can take back Egypt.

I’m not seeing any good options here. Rather just Taranto…
Italy sometimes gets to attack after, but only if the raid goes bad or the counter is hugely successful. But that’s the dice. The UK transports can usually bring in enough units to keep Egypt safe UK2-4, provided that Italy never has 2 transports of their own.

@surfer

If they take either egypt or gibraltar, and UK fleet is mostly dead, they get 2 bonuses. But I’ve never cared much whether Egypt falls–though I wouldn’t put my Persiraq factories down with no/taranto. And if they go for that, UK can attack them away from their AB.

If the UK fleet survives, once the US shows up it doesn’t really matter what Italy did, their capital is under grave threat.
Because of the geometry of the SZ around Italy and the med, they can’t just block 1 square or hide.

Taranto is simple and the odds are really high that you demolish Italy, then he has to waste the rest of his forces counterattacking. In that situation, Italy is so helpless its more of a liability than an asset.

I’ve tried the Gibbastion, I can’t recall what went so dreadfully wrong with it. But I love the idea of denying Italy the bonuses so I’m going to do it again next game.

@taamvan So basically there is no perfect solution. Every option has advantages and downsides so it seems. imo the utmost priority is protecting london and so if Gibastion achieves that then that is the best short term option, even though this can have negative consequences for Egypt.

@Cornwallis

Yes I agree, and UK is distinctly more vulnerable to a snake-sea-lion when 2+ fighters leave. So going to try the Bastion next time I’m UK, it may offer more freedom of purchasing in the early UK game.