How to make battleships a more attractive purchase

I’ve played with the house rule of- everyone(except China) gets one free roll at the beginning of every complete round. If you want more, you use the OOB rules for R&D as usual.

This rule is part of the Axis & Allies Global 1940 2E, House Rules Expansion.

Naval Task Forces at sea brought with them Support & Supply Ships - in order to perform their operations - and make necessary repairs without depending on a Port.

This is reflected in the Capital Warship Damage rule.

The largest Battleships ever built, were limited in numbers - but extremely powerfull.
This is reflected in the Super Heavy Battleship rule.

G40 Capital Warship Damage & Super Heavy Battleships.pdf

@Der:

@simon33:

You can look at it like that. I’m looking at it from the point of view of what makes the game more fun. If I take your baking a cake analogy, do you read the recipe before shopping for ingredients? The current turn order is basically, buy some ingredients, read the recipe (combat movement), bake cake (conduct combat). You have to prognosticate what will be in the recipe to know what you need to buy.

No combat movement would be moving all of your ingredients to stove. ;)

I think my analogy is every bit as valid as yours.

The point is that the need to prognosticate the likely outcome of the board at the end of your combats is unnecessary, time consuming and reduces the fun. Whether the current rule makes sense or not isn’t really relevant.

The point about forgetting to purchase isn’t really valid with a Triple-A game because it prompts you. You can say that a forgotten purchase is a zero purchase if you apply the rule strictly. In general I would expect so if a retrospective purchase gives an unfair advantage.

Face to face, I use a merged purchase+combat movement phase. Probably why we can play a game in a day.

#houserules

@oztea:

Because when the US buys the token for 5….
When it gets to soviet territory it can be cashed in for 10.

Thats to make it worthwhile for the allies to do.

Now I see better.

It is worthwhile for Allies to give IPCs to Russia, to get some troops in Europe it requires a long logistic line.
Simply giving (up to 12 IPCs) to Russia will allow a moving of 4 Inf from USA to Russia almost instantly.
When Russia and Archangel are part of a decisive ETO, it is in itself an incentive… unless playing with a greedy and selfish USA player.

That’s why it required some limits and the possibility to destroy some of this IPCs for Axis.

Does it strike anybody else as odd that a transport can pick up troops move two zones and drop them off but can’t pick up troops, move one space drop them off and then still have one more MP so as to either move back or go to a different sea zone. Another even better instance would be a fleet battle where say a battleship moves one space fights and wins but can’t move any further but the battleship can move two zones first and fight.

To me ships should be treated as planes so that they get their full movement potential whether they battle or not. In a realism sense I believe this makes more sense. After all there is no extra total amount of work in the two cases for the transport as i illustrated. In both cases they have to load up move and unload their troops. If one moves shorter distance before unloading it would still be able to leave the beaches and continue on. I realize there would some additional time needed in the transport situation since it would have to leave from the beach back to open water and move on. But if it is all open sea combat such as in the case of the Battleship why can’t it continue moving. The same amount of fuel and time would be spent in moving one zone, battling for say one day and then moving another zone as would the time and fuel spent in moving two zones then battling for a day.

We implemented this rule back in the revised edition when ships were more expensive and so vulnerable for their cost to air power. we still use it at times in the Anniv Ed simply because it makes sense and it allows the Japanese navy for instance to not have to try to always keep its fleet in uberbunches since the U.S. is generally shadowing it with a decent navy and has bombers grouped in whatever island is available. this allows Japan to keep its navy together send several transports out on missions say one zone away then come back to the safety of the fleet. the fleet can still be beaten by a combined force of navy/air if the U.S. wants to go that route and build up their forces but it doesn’t force players to have to split up their fleet into little pieces if they want to launch invasions of a few territories nearby.

i feel our rule helps balance sea and air a litle which needs to happen somehow since sea can’t effectively ever win you a game since it can destroy units but never actually take anything for you and so will never directly contribute to your income like planes do. i know planes can’t secure territory either but one fighter in a land battle makes much more of a difference than one cruiser bombarding at 3 agreed? and that cruiser costs 12 compared to a fighter at 10. plus if you look at cruiser compared to a fighter, the cruiser contributes less to land battles and fights 3 attack and defense while costing more than a fighter who can attack at the same but defend even better AND they’re less vulnerable to counter attack AND they can be put into the sea on carriers AND they have greater flexibility. the only advantage of the carrier is that it doesn’t need another unit (carrier) to be in the sea and help protect transports. but the only two goals of a fleet ever are to protect transports to get more territory furthering your progress to victory or defending against/attacing another navy to preven tthem from doing the same.

that is true that bookkeeping can be a pain but it still isn’t too bad and for us it has worked fairly well. The main reason that we did it ever was looking at how aircraft can consistently pick and choose their battles and bombers can go out strike then return to a haven with fighters. by an IPC cost and battle odds comparison it made any fleet ridiculously vulnerable to air power if a fleet ever fractured a little bit bc they want to hit multiple territories in a turn. i realize the game isn’t simultaneous but i see nothing wrong with allowing a max of two MPs still for sea units and allowing them to move that total regardless. The one move for combat one non-com would be a good go-between though, we’ll try it. I guess we just looked at how often and easily air power messed up fleets and every time a decent air force was nearby any splitting of the fleet automatically condemned it to death by the other side’s air force. in reality or at least the stream of reality that A&A gives us it is entirely in the game’s time mechanism that a transport or other ship could leave a fleet perform some task like fight a battle/drop off troops and rejoin at the end in the same way that planes do different tasks and can regroup at the end. this way fleets are a little more flexible and they don’t all have to go to one exact place. looking at how even the odds are for if one side brings X IPCs worth of planes against the same value in only-combat ships we thought fleets should get a little more flexibilty and the chance to protect themselves. this was it makes sense for even an air power team to make some navy themselves to help bring down an opposing fleet rather than just constantly spam fleets with air units which is what generally would happen. the reason i feel fleets were too expensive/not flexible enough is illustrated here: lets say that a fleet costs the same as the air power going against it and we’ll even for sake of argument not have any non-fighting ships (subs and transports) factored in even though transports are a necessary part of a navy if it ever wants to make a difference by getting more IPCs for their power. if you consider the cost of the non-fighting transports who cost IPCs but can’t even aborb hits in a tight spot this is even more difficulty for a fleet but here is just one iteration of many different only air vs sea scenarios.

three cruisers and 5 destroyers vs three bombers and 4 fighters. in both cases a cost of 76 IPCs. the most common outcome for the first round is that the navy is reduced to three CAs and one DD and the airforce is three Bombers and one Fighter at that point the odds are still close but on defense you have 3 dice at 3 and 1 at 2 whereas the offense has 3 dice at 4 and 1 at 3. the great news for the airforce is that if they win they can go back home and be free from easy counterattack buteven if this navy has survivors it has been crippled and the only way for it to survive till the next round is if no other powers have air units in range or if it builds more sea units. i realize only head to head isn’t a perfect comparison bc there is value to being able to bombard with ships and forcing an enemy to cover his various coastal positions bc of your possibilities….But it struck me that air units are just so much more valuable not only heads up but bc of their flexibility bc they can contribute way more to a ground assault than even a battleship can so why even build much of a navy unless you need to land troops, just build a massive airforce spread out over various territories and any time the enemy tries to go beyond the slowpoke pace of seizing several territories in one turn annhilate that portion. that is what i would do every game with the U.S. till i got sick of it and went for a realism game of bombing Germany and trying to take europe while fighting a delaying action in the pacific.

the other reason we did this is that if Italy ever wants to build sea units in the same turn as dropping off units in Egypt or Transjordan they must necessarily split their fleet between guarding the transport and the newly built one sea unit since neither will put up much resistance (none in the transport’s case) to an air assault. but here is the thing that transport pry never has to carry out any moves from further than the Italian sea zone and yet it can’t return. playing the traditional way the U.S. can put about 3 fighters in caucuses and simply wait for this split to occur and nail one piece. if the italians never split then the pace that their navy accomplishes anything is further reduced.

i realize the limitations in trying to balance games only by using head to head unit comparisons but i believe one good test of balance is if their is an strategy that works absurdly well and his little chance to have a legit counter than something needs to change. I like the idea of reducing the cruiser so that at least defense vs fighter offense they are the same plus if you give it an extra capability like anti-sub or flak then it actually has a rationale to exist in one’s lineup. i don’t buy the argument that they should be kept simply to allow a person to buy a naval unit if they don’t have enoguh to buy a battleship that round. i like to give people a reason to buy each unit depending on their strategy.

A balance theory can’t simply be reduced to how certain setups work otherwise you could show that tanks are worthless as offensive weapons by a set up where the defense has 14 infantry and the offense has 6 tanks and 4 infantry costing the same IPCs to both. the likely result is that the defender wins with 4-6 infantry remaining. however this doesn’t account for the fact that on offense there is still incentive to attack by finding weak spots in the defense to overwhelm them plus the ability to bring airplanes to a spot where the defense has none.

i like to analyze the math of the game and try to keep their from being too many ridiculous flaws but i’m always discovering things i didn’t realize such as how battleships go beyond just their matchup capabilities in sea to sea combat. everytime they are in a battle and win while absorbing a hit they have effectively saved the winning side one ship by virtue of absorbing a hit that would’ve sunk something else. this means that battleships have value even if they were somewhat more expensive i think. i always just used to look at the heads up comparison of them in a sea battle to just cruisers or destroyers but those units can’t preserve units in effect like a battleship can. however you could argue that with extra cheaper units you would have won sooner in your battle anyway so who knows lol. sorry for the insane post.

I’d stick with the Larry Harris scheme (factory in Sink for 5 doesn’t seem right), just add a total of 5 inf to what China already has.  1941 requires even more inf I think as China is much too weak.

If Japan can destroy China by Turn 3 something isn’t right IMHO.  A pro Japan should capture China by Turn 4-5, India by 6-8, and start threatening Moscow around Turn 10.  If Germany/Italy can still hold out for a few more turns at this point then the Axis probably deserves the win.

oldsalty, regarding India and third world I think the problem is best addressed by playing with custom income values (rather than a specific rule)

AARHE don’t adjust it as it intends to be a house rule rather than a variant
even then variant map “AARHE 1939” is not that “pure” and gave India 4 IPC hehe

buy some number chips, Imperious can probably tell you where to get that kind of stuff