I think I erred there, I’d normally have troops on Finland ready to counter a Norway landing.
13P G40 MagicQ (Axis) vs JDOW (Allies +12) dice nt
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TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.8
Game History
Round: 4
Purchase Units - British
Turning on Edit Mode
EDIT: Removing units owned by Americans from Gibraltar: 1 fighter
EDIT: Adding units owned by Americans to 91 Sea Zone: 1 fighter
EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
British buy 1 airfield, 1 armour and 1 fighter; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;Purchase Units - UK_Pacific
UK_Pacific buy 1 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;Combat Move - British
1 transport moved from 91 Sea Zone to 92 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from Gibraltar to 92 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from 92 Sea Zone to Algeria
1 transport moved from 91 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 110 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from 110 Sea Zone to Holland Belgium
1 infantry moved from Egypt to Alexandria
1 tactical_bomber moved from Egypt to Alexandria
1 fighter moved from Egypt to Alexandria
1 mech_infantry moved from Iraq to 80 Sea Zone
1 mech_infantry and 1 transport moved from 80 Sea Zone to 76 Sea Zone
1 mech_infantry moved from 76 Sea Zone to British Somaliland
1 battleship moved from 80 Sea Zone to 76 Sea Zone
1 cruiser moved from 80 Sea Zone to 76 Sea Zone
1 bomber moved from Egypt to British Somaliland
1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Union of South Africa to 71 Sea Zone
1 artillery, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 71 Sea Zone to 76 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from 76 Sea Zone to British Somaliland
1 artillery moved from 76 Sea Zone to British Somaliland
1 infantry moved from Anglo Egyptian Sudan to Ethiopia
British take Ethiopia from Italians
1 infantry moved from Anglo Egyptian Sudan to Kenya
British take Kenya from Italians
1 fighter moved from India to 41 Sea Zone
1 armour, 7 artilleries, 1 fighter, 15 infantry, 2 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber moved from India to Burma
1 destroyer moved from 109 Sea Zone to 125 Sea Zone
1 submarine moved from 110 Sea Zone to 125 Sea Zone
1 fighter moved from Scotland to 125 Sea ZoneCombat - British
Battle in 125 Sea Zone
British attack with 1 destroyer, 1 fighter and 1 submarine
Germans defend with 1 submarine
British win, taking 125 Sea Zone from Neutral with 1 fighter and 1 submarine remaining. Battle score for attacker is -2
Casualties for Germans: 1 submarine
Casualties for British: 1 destroyer
Battle in Algeria
Battle in Alexandria
British attack with 1 fighter, 1 infantry and 1 tactical_bomber
Italians defend with 1 infantry
British win, taking Algeria from Italians with 1 fighter and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
Casualties for British: 1 infantry
Casualties for Italians: 1 infantry
Battle in Holland Belgium
Battle in 41 Sea Zone
British attack with 1 fighter
Japanese defend with 1 transport
British win, taking Holland Belgium from Germans with 1 fighter remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
Casualties for Japanese: 1 transport
Battle in Burma
British attack with 1 armour, 7 artilleries, 1 fighter, 15 infantry, 2 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber
Japanese defend with 1 infantry
British win, taking Burma from Japanese with 1 armour, 7 artilleries, 1 fighter, 14 infantry, 2 mech_infantrys and 1 tactical_bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0
Casualties for Japanese: 1 infantry
Casualties for British: 1 infantry
Battle in British Somaliland
British attack with 1 artillery, 1 bomber, 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
Italians defend with 1 artillery and 2 infantry
British win, taking British Somaliland from Italians with 1 artillery and 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
Casualties for British: 1 infantry and 1 mech_infantry
Casualties for Italians: 1 artillery and 2 infantryNon Combat Move - British
1 bomber moved from British Somaliland to Egypt
1 tactical_bomber moved from Alexandria to Egypt
1 fighter moved from Alexandria to Egypt
1 fighter moved from 41 Sea Zone to India
1 mech_infantry moved from India to Eastern Persia
British take Eastern Persia from Neutral_Allies
1 tactical_bomber moved from Burma to India
1 fighter moved from Burma to India
3 aaGuns moved from India to Burma
1 fighter moved from 125 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
1 aaGun moved from United Kingdom to 109 Sea Zone
1 aaGun, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 109 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
1 aaGun moved from 110 Sea Zone to Normandy Bordeaux
1 destroyer moved from 91 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
1 carrier moved from 91 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
1 cruiser moved from 91 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
1 battleship moved from 91 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
1 fighter moved from 110 Sea Zone to United Kingdom
1 aaGun moved from United Kingdom to 110 Sea ZonePlace Units - British
1 airfield placed in Gibraltar
1 fighter placed in United Kingdom
1 armour placed in Union of South AfricaTurn Complete - British
British collect 37 PUs; end with 37 PUs totalPlace Units - UK_Pacific
1 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys placed in IndiaTurn Complete - UK_Pacific
UK_Pacific collect 6 PUs; end with 6 PUs total
Some Units in India change ownership: 1 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys -
away till Monday now. good night!
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I can only explain in this way. This seazone is gonna be hostile this turn so the rest of the fleets can move out to avoid combat. Does that make sense?
If the rule is not so, I will be really surprised.
Cheers
A sub does not make a seazone hostile. Europe 2nd Edition page 8
Friendly sea zones contain no surface warships (this doesn�t include
submarines and transports) belonging to a power with which you are at war. Hostile sea zones contain surface warships
belonging to a power with which you are at war.Page 13:
Sea units moving into a sea zone containing only enemy
submarines and/or transports in order to attack those
units. (Remember that such a sea zone is not considered
hostile.)page 14:
If you are sharing a sea zone with surface warships (not
submarines and/or transports) belonging to a power with
which you are at war, this situation requires you to do one
of the following:
� Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat,
� Leave the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct
combat elsewhere,
� Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same
sea zone to conduct combat (you can�t load units while
in a hostile sea zone), or
� Leave the sea zone and conduct no combat.I know this situation quite well because it occured in previous games of mine and I asked gamerman about it and he confirmed that subs do not make a seazone hostile.
Could you show me your previous games in which this situation occurred please?
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http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32415.420
I moved a sub to Philippines US4 and my opponent waived to attack and got the convoy damage to avoid the fleet being stuck there.
Man, I am afraid this “trick” is now used against me in our game;)
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TripleA Move Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.8
Game History
Round: 4
Purchase Units - Italians
Italians buy 1 destroyer, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber; Remaining resources: 1 PUs;Combat Move - Italians
1 mech_infantry moved from Belarus to Bryansk
Italians take Bryansk from Russians
1 armour moved from Belarus to Smolensk
Italians take Smolensk from Russians
1 artillery moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
1 bomber moved from Southern Italy to Holland Belgium
2 fighters moved from 95 Sea Zone to Algeria
1 mech_infantry moved from Libya to Algeria -
TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.8
Game History
Round: 4
Purchase Units - Italians
Italians buy 1 destroyer, 1 submarine and 1 tactical_bomber; Remaining resources: 1 PUs;Combat Move - Italians
1 mech_infantry moved from Belarus to Bryansk
Italians take Bryansk from Russians
1 armour moved from Belarus to Smolensk
Italians take Smolensk from Russians
1 artillery moved from Western Germany to Holland Belgium
1 bomber moved from Southern Italy to Holland Belgium
2 fighters moved from 95 Sea Zone to Algeria
1 mech_infantry moved from Libya to AlgeriaCombat - Italians
Battle in Holland Belgium
Italians attack with 1 artillery and 1 bomber
British defend with 1 infantry
Italians win, taking Holland Belgium from British with 1 artillery and 1 bomber remaining. Battle score for attacker is 3
Casualties for British: 1 infantry
Battle in Algeria
Italians attack with 2 fighters and 1 mech_infantry
British defend with 1 infantry
retreated to Algeria
British win with 1 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -4
Casualties for Italians: 1 mech_infantryNon Combat Move - Italians
2 fighters moved from Algeria to 95 Sea Zone
1 artillery and 1 infantry moved from Tobruk to Libya
1 transport moved from 95 Sea Zone to 96 Sea Zone
1 armour and 1 infantry moved from Tobruk to 96 Sea Zone
1 armour, 1 infantry and 1 transport moved from 96 Sea Zone to 95 Sea Zone
1 armour and 1 infantry moved from 95 Sea Zone to Northern Italy
1 transport moved from 95 Sea Zone to 97 Sea Zone
2 infantry moved from Albania to 97 Sea Zone
2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 97 Sea Zone to 95 Sea Zone
2 infantry moved from 95 Sea Zone to Northern Italy
1 bomber moved from Holland Belgium to Southern Italy
1 armour moved from Eastern Poland to Smolensk
1 mech_infantry moved from Belarus to Smolensk
1 aaGun and 2 infantry moved from Bessarabia to Western Ukraine
1 infantry moved from Northern Italy to France
1 artillery moved from Northern Italy to France
1 artillery moved from Northern Italy to Western Germany
1 aaGun moved from Northern Italy to Southern ItalyPlace Units - Italians
1 destroyer and 1 submarine placed in 95 Sea Zone
1 tactical_bomber placed in Southern ItalyTurn Complete - Italians
Italians collect 19 PUs; end with 20 PUs total -
Hiya
I get response form official ruler in terms of that sub thing in sz 42. He said that is a loophole. I think we should play in the right way and edit it back. You will still get your sub but not in sz 42, I will get convoy ipc back and do a little non combat edit. How does that sound?
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Hey there,
I am sorry but I disagree. Could you quote what he said and who he was? I played this move in several games and it was played against me.
It is clearly within the rules in written and confirmed by gamerman who is the official rule deputy in this forum.In my personal opinion is: It does not look like a loop hole to me as the special role of subs is clearly described and reminded several times in the rule book. To me it sounds that it was clearly Larry’s intention to give subs that option - although I accept if someone said he finds this a bid odd.
If the official rules would be changed, I would of course follow this change, I believe that this must happen first.So I would like to continue with the latest map and no change in any rules. Please believe me that this is just what I am convinced is the best thing do to with absolutely no intention to get specific advantages in our game - this “thing” was also used against me by the Axis, so it is clearly not an “Allies-only advantage” or so.
Cheers,
Tobias -
Get a response from Krieghund
here is the link
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28562.0not yet received any response after that from gamerman.
Pls wait a little while to continue our game. I think he will give his opinion very soon.
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Sure, I’ll wait!
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Hi JDOW
Official ruler recommends us to play in the way I proposed. Gamerman says we have to obey current official rule unless you agree to change. So it’s up to you now. If you don’t want any change, do carry on.
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Hi MagicQ,
I appreciate you made an unbiased summary of the thread which I followed, too.
My opinion is:
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I would not like to make any changes on the current map (with one exception) as I played 100% according to the rules which are not ambiguous in my opinion and I not want to take any disadvantages for the legal achievements of my strategy so far - you have my word I would do it the same way if I were Axis in that spot. It was certainly part of my strategy to use subs this way and this influenced my e.g. Anzac buys.
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On the other hand I understand the emotion of being confronted with a negative surprise and the disappointment if being ruled against oneself and I do not want my opponent to be annoyed and risking an unfriendly game though
My conclusion is: -
We both agree to not exploit that loop hole anymore for the rest of our game by NOT moving subs into seazones containing destroyers in Non combat move phase. I think the real loophole is NOT the combat move rules but the fact the subs are allowed to be moved into seazones containing enemy destroyers in non combat movement. So subs could still be deployed in such seazones if possible
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I will edit my US sub off sz6 and put it to Hawaii and I do Anzac with the latest map + that edit.
Hope you are happy to game on that way and that we continue to having a great game.
Best regards,
Tobias -
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Hi JDOW
Thank you for your understanding. I do prefer the rest of our game without having that loophole involved. But the noncombat movement of moving sub into sz with enemy’s destroyer is indeed legal. We shouldn’t change that part. All we need to know is that next round enemy could kill that sub and move other fleets in the same time.
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You have found the root of the problem but gone a bit too far I am afraid. The official ruler has explained this somewhere in the forum. A sub can enter but not go through the sz with enemy’s dd. This is quite clear. I don’t propose to change that. Combining this rule with convoy rule makes USA more competitive in Pacific theater than any other version. Remember that in AA50 (not sure whether you’ve played it or not), even if USA go all Pacific, they still can not challenge Japan.
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ok, fine for me to play it that way from now on. However without the loophole moving subs into hostile sz will usually not be an option anyway:)
I still distinguish moving subs into such seazones and deploy them there. I somehow think that deploying units is something special and I would even prefer of that loophole being enabled in that situation. But the chance that this will play a role is small anyway, so fine for me to waive it here. I will need to think what I will “vote” for in case my opponent doesn’t bother.
But fine to me to allow enemies fleet to leave the sz during combat move phase.
Game on:)
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Great, game on.
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Still an option. 1 sub for 1 dd, 2 ipc gain when use it properly
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TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.8
Game History
Round: 4
Purchase Units - ANZAC
ANZAC buy 1 destroyer and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;Combat Move - ANZAC
1 infantry moved from Egypt to Alexandria
British take Alexandria from ItaliansCombat - ANZAC
ANZAC creates battle in territory 42 Sea ZoneNon Combat Move - ANZAC
1 submarine moved from 42 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from South Australia to New South Wales
1 submarine moved from 62 Sea Zone to 54 Sea Zone
2 infantry moved from India to Burma
2 fighters moved from India to Eastern PersiaPlace Units - ANZAC
1 destroyer and 1 transport placed in 62 Sea ZoneTurn Complete - ANZAC
ANZAC collect 10 PUs; end with 10 PUs total -
TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 2nd Edition, version: 3.8
Game History
Round: 4
Combat Move - French
Non Combat Move - French
1 infantry moved from Egypt to Alexandria
1 infantry moved from Anglo Egyptian Sudan to Egypt
1 destroyer moved from 80 Sea Zone to 39 Sea Zone
1 infantry moved from 110 Sea Zone to Normandy Bordeaux
1 infantry moved from United Kingdom to 110 Sea ZoneTurn Complete - French
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Still an option. 1 sub for 1 dd, 2 ipc gain when use it properly
Sorry, I am afraid I didn’t understand, what did you mean by that?