Alternative way of integrating Air combat in regular combat- For Review

@Tall:

Guys,

––Whether a “1-round only” or “Fight to the Death” of ALL attacking/defending aircraft BEFORE the main battle is a level of “Air Combat” that I am interested in and had planned on including in a “Solomons Game” I’ve been planning.

----Consider this: The victor of “Local Air Superiority” would automatically receive a “boost” to any attacking Tactical Bombers to a “4 roll” due to no enemy Fighters present to distrct/kill them which is not only logical and simple,….but based in reality.
----Also, the designer of the “Invasion of Okinawa” game had many interesting “Air Combat” rules and are worth looking at. Just my 2 cents.

“Tall Paul”

––Consider this: The victor of “Local Air Superiority” would automatically receive a “boost” to any attacking Tactical Bombers to a “4 roll” due to no enemy Fighters present to distrct/kill them which is not only logical and simple,….but based in reality.

I thought that’s why they give OOB +1A to TcB “paired to a Fg”.

Clearly An Air Supremacy bonus should affect TcB to be logical and historically accurate.

I hope I can bring it into this HR without too much unbalancing effect.

In addition to the OOB +1A to TCB paired with Fg, does a “1” roll letting chose the casualty could fit?

Or a special bonus “Air Supremacy” to TcB: making all casualties killed like a first strike (Sub surprise strike) be better, forbidding retaliation from the casualty made by TcB in Air Supremacy condition?

@toblerone77:

I get your drift, that’s why I wasn’t posting on it LOL. There’s already been some collaboration on it (my different idea) so to speak and it differs from the work you guys are and have done for AAG40e. I was just wondering if this was something else you were working on or a sub-thread on AAG40e’s air combat system.

Cheers.

I dont even know myself. It can be one thing, or one thing with two variants.
Future will tell…
But is clear, that the initial G40E Thread help me having this idea.

@oztea:

Why wouldn’t you go:

Fighter 8 2/2/4
Defends at 3 when at a friendly operational air base or has an available landing spot on a carrier. Tactical Bomber 9 3/3/4
Attacks at 4 when paired with a friendly fighter, defends at 4 when no enemy air units are present. Strategic Bomber 10 2/1/6
Attacks at +2 when launched from a friendly operational air base
+2 to strategic attack die when launched from a friendly operational air base

Night bombing and day bombing raids
When launching a strategic attack the attacker may choose to launch the air raid during the day, or during the night.

• Night Bombing, the interceptors rule is suspended but bombers suffer a -2 penalty to their roll representing decreased accuracy; AA fires at bombers normally
• Day Bombing, rolls of ‘1’ may be rerolled when damaging the facility

I brought your post here to not derail G40E or just explore only this aspect of air combat.
From my point of view, I think this Pandora’s box about FgA2D2M4C8, always hit Air first, need more investigation and exploration of possibilities.
So anybody feel free to express ideas.

From my discussion with Uncrustable, I saw that I was more preoccupied with keeping as much as possible the OOB balance without affecting the initial start-up board in which you know OOB about Fg and TcB is very different. My focus was much about rules mechanics and balance than anything else.

While he was looking for something more simple and historically accurate, as creating new set of rules which can work pretty well but maybe need a large revision of the start-up board, a kind of 1940 Global for Enhanced.

After reading your post, you help me seeing another combination about Fg and TcB:

Fg A2D2M4C8, always hit air first, then ground.
Get +1A/D when fighting against air only units. * see below
No more bonus against ground units only.

TcB A3D3M4C10, get +1 A/D when paired 1:1 with Fg.
Get +1A/D upon gaining Air Supremacy (No enemy’s air plane.)
Bonus never exceed A4/D4. Just two ways to get it.
Hit air when “1” is rolled.
(It seems required to me, for getting a kind of reciprocity between attacker and defender both vulnerable to each other instead of one side shooting the TcB of the other with no possible retaliation against Fg.
I just want to forbid a kind of “Na! Na! my Fgs are invulnerable behind my stack of Inf while your TcBS crashed down one by one.”

StB no more able to hit air directly. Need more discussion about need of AB for them. To still make them an interesting choice:
At least, StB A3D1M6C11, +1A & +2 damage die when starting from Air Base. To keep them a competitive unit.
We could also add the +1A bonus also for Air Supremacy (no enemy plane). But never more than A4. Again, 2 ways to get the +1 bonus.

In a certain way, the new TcB has almost the same stat of OOB Fg A3D4 and also gaining the bonus of the OOB TcB A3-4D3.
The new TcB will be a combination of both, that’s why I would keep it at 10 IPCs.

Defends at 3 when at a friendly operational air base or has an available landing spot on a carrier.

I think it is the way to keep the defensive value of TcB+Fg on a carrier vs OOB. Just compare:
OOB � � vs new TcB+Fg
A3D4+A3-4D3 � vs � A3-4D3-4 + A2(3*only air) D2-3
A6-7D7 � vs A5-6D5-6-7
It will keep carrier as a defensive unit able to protect and combat other naval units.
Don’t forget: OOB carrier could be A0D2+ 2Fg A6D8= A6D10!
Now the best we get is: A6(*7)D7 and with 2 Fg get A4D4, only!!!

• I introduce the +1A/D when fighting air only because Fg is historically an anti-aircraft weapon but also because of the mechanism of attrition: the A2D2 was meant because it allows Fg to trespass the ground and naval units which can be used as fodder in the reg OOB system.
  When there is no more cheap fodders, I think Fg should retrieve the regular stat given to such air units (around 3).

Otherwise, Fg become much more vulnerable if they are attacked by a large group of TcB (3 or 4) and StratB (4).
In that way, Fg will be inferior in air combat!, which is contrary to all we said on them, just because the A/D value of TcB and StB was calculated to be against ground/naval units, then Air.
So let them be an equal match when there is no other casualties to take except planes.

@Uncrustable:

Here is where G40e stands:

Fighters-cost 8 A2D2. On all hits an air unit must be chosen first(choose your own casualty applies)
-Fighters defend at 3, if there is an operational friendly airbase present
Tac bombers- cost 10 A3D3, no SBR
-Tac bombers A4D4 if there are no enemy aircraft, and atleast 1 friendly fighter is present (Air supremacy bonus)
Quote
Fighters: Cheap, strong on defense with an AB (See Battle of Britain), escort and intercept SBR
Tac bombers: Best combat air unit, needs fighters, deadly vs ground units when the skies are clear (no SBR)

To me it makes no sense to give fighters a bonus during air supremacy.
Tactical bombers would be the ones benefiting. No longer having to worry about enemy air, tactical can better focus now what they do best: attacking the ground.
Not to mention giving the fighters the bonus would give little reason to purchase tacs.

About this first point on fighter, just compare:

Fg A2D2M4C8, always hit air first, then ground.](choose your own casualty applies)
Get +1A/D when fighting against air only units. * see below
No more bonus against ground units only.

• I introduce the +1A/D when fighting air only because Fg is historically an anti-aircraft weapon but also because of the mechanism of attrition: the A2D2 was meant because it allows Fg to trespass the ground and naval units which can be used as fodder in the reg OOB system.
  When there is no more cheap fodders, I think Fg should retrieve the regular stat given to such air units (around 3).

Otherwise, Fg become much more vulnerable if they are attacked by a large group of TcB (3 or 4) and StratB (4).
In that way, FgA2D2 will be inferior in air combat to StB and TcB!, which is contrary to all we said on them, just because the A/D value of TcB and StB was calculated to be against ground/naval units, then Air.
So let them be an equal match when there is no other casualties to take except planes.

About TcB, here is an important difference, you need to compare closely:
(we can talk later about the other aspect: the “1” rolled, I agree it is not simple and alien to A&A rules.)

TcB A3D3M4C10, get +1 A/D when paired 1:1 with Fg. Anytime, even when enemy’s plane are present.
Get +1A/D upon gaining Air Supremacy (No enemy’s air plane.) But no need of additional Fg (or Armor).
Bonus never exceed A4/D4. Just two ways to get it.

This is two important difference between Fg and TcB you input for G40E and mine which I think can be much nearer of the OOB Fg and TcB (to keep as much as possible the same game flow without revising all the set-up).

And we haven’t discuss about the TcB paired with Armor 1:1, giving +1A.
Would you keep the bonus or not?

@Uncrustable:

You want to make fighters too powerful
At the same time creating too much carnage among air units.

No need for any 1:1 with tacs
They get +1 attack and defense with air superioty
This gives very good reason to have a number of both units, while neither is too powerful alone.

Fighters alone would be too weak
Tac bombers alone would be vulnerable to enemy fighters If you want range and SBR you need strat bombers

There is a very good combined arms mechanic here

I don’t understand why you want to make fighters so powerful

In fact, the actual stats make better a purchase of TcB.
Armor A3D3M2C6, TcB A3-4D3-4M4C10, FgA2D2M4C8 and StB A3-4D1M6C12 must be balance together for ground battle.
DD, Cruiser, Carrier and planes must be balance also in naval battle.

I think devil is in the details.

Just one example:
2 StB from AB are launch against 2 Fgs (isolated 1 territory behind front line).
OOB: 2A4 vs 2D4…� A draw, in fact no one will risk to loose 24 IPCs vs 20 IPCs
G40e: 2A4 vs 2D2… Fg are clearly inferior, StB will mostly go for the kill.
Baron-X?: 2A4 vs 2D3, *because there is no ground units with the 2 StBs, 2 Fgs get D+1: in between OOB and G40e.

2 TcBs vs 2 Fgs…
OOB: 2A3 vs 2D4… Advantage Fg vs TcB
G40e: 2A3 vs 2D2… Advantage TcB
Baron-X: 2A3 vs 2D2+1*, a draw.

On 1-on-1 basis vs planes, I think fighter must be as strong as OOB fighter A3 vs TcB � or StB.

Against naval units, the +1 bonus A/D vs plane only should be even more specific:
when there is only planes and Capital Ships (CV and BB), then Fg get +1 A/D. Up to Max A3D4 when combine with +1D bonus from carrier base operation.

Why BB and CV? Because Cruiser and DD can be consider fodder of the sea, and sometimes be destroyed before planes.

Because if you compare a standard fleet, the G40e Fg is really a weaker unit.
1DD+1CA+1BB+1CV… � a-(2Fg) � …b-(1Fg+1TcB) � …c-(2 TcB) vs same hypothetical fleet.

For the example, limit the scope to carrier only.

CV A0D2+ [xFg A3D4 + xTcB A3-4D3]
OOB: CV+ � a- A6D8 � b- A6-7D7 � � c- A6D6… � On defense, you choose a (2 Fgs) / Offense b/ c is worst
G40e: CV+ a-A4D4 � � b- A5-6D5-6 c- A6D6… On defense, you choose c / on offense c / a is worst (2 Fgs)
Baron-x? Cv+ aA4D4+2** � b- A2+A3+1=6/D2+1D3+1=7*** � c- A6D6

** +1D Carrier operation bonus for Fg.
*** + 1A/D bonus to TcB paired 1:1 with Fg (no need of air supremacy), +1D **

Even with those adjustments, you can see that OOB -a- is still the better against naval units.

At least, in Baron-x version:
a-(2 Fgs) can compete on defense D6 vs c-(2 TcBs) D6
and b-(1 Fg+1TcB) becomes a more interesting buying A6D7 vs c (2 TcBs).

So why bother to have Fg on a carrier in the G40e?
Anyway, they will be destroy at the same time of DD taken as casualty (same cost/ same punch) or even before if you need to block subs.
The defensive capacity of carrier has mainly disappeared.

Giving A2D2 against air only, is an interesting aspect when air units are dangerous and hard to hit because there is a massive stack of Inf. But, it is no more an advantage when fighting with TcB or StB against other planes without any fodder units. TcB A3-4 and StB A3-4 will be the better units even if your up against only Fighters D2!

This correction rule for Fg is necessary to balance the value of A/D vs casualty distribution.
Ground units or DDs, Subs and even cruisers are taken as casualties before planes.
And when a battle has reach this climax, the advantage of Fg has vanished, since anyway any hits will take a plane as casualties.

Otherwise, I think it would be better to say that Fg have:
a regular A2D2M4C8 and an additional @1 vs plane, every round.

In face of all that complexes additionnal rules, the only alternative to keep almost the same gameflow without too much aircraft attition, I think it is:
a regular A2D3M4C8, get an additional non-preemptive but limited 1@1 vs plane, every round.
The limited 1@1 means that if that roll is a success, then no further roll for this fighter in the round.
If that roll is a miss, then you can roll the regular A2D3.
If there is no aircraft, of course no 1@1 is required.

TcB A3D3C12, if paired 1:1 with Fighter or Armor get +1 A/D.
If Air Supremacy is gained (No enemy’s aircraft, 1 fighter present) then all TcB gain +1 A/D.

@Uncrustable:

get an additional non-preemptive but limited 1@1 vs plane, every round.
The limited 1@1 means that if that roll is a success, then no further roll for this fighter in the round.
If that roll is a miss, then you can roll the regular A2D3.
If there is no aircraft, of course no 1@1 is required.

I dont even know what this means, this is confusing

TcB A3D3C12, if paired 1:1 with Fighter or Armor get +1 A/D.
If Air Supremacy is gained (No enemy’s aircraft, 1 fighter present) then all TcB gain +1 A/D.

So TcB can get A5D5? Obiviously too much
Either way this weakens fighters

Why do you want to keep the 1:1 so badly?
what is wrong with: Tacbomb get +1 attack/defense when no enemy air and atleast 1 friendly fighter?

You are right it was confusing and bad written.
I never intent to give A5D5. It was 2 ways to gain this A4D4.

After much thinking about it, here is what I will propose to my friends as HR.
It is not a great innovation but it still be a small improvement vs OOB.

Fg A3D3M4C9, on a roll of “1” destroy an enemy aircraft (owner’s choice).
When defending an AB territory (all Fgs in it), a roll of “1” or “2” destroy an enemy’s aircraft.

TcB A3D3M4C10, when paired 1:1 with Fg get +1 A/D (max A4D4).
It can also get +1 A/D (max A4D4) via Air Supremacy (no enemy’s aircraft present, no need of any Fg).
No more pairing bonus with Armor, because Air Supremacy bonus is enough.

I see the paired with Fg 1:1 as a way to show a collaborative factor between attack planes and escort planes playing their respective role.

The roll of “1” destroy a plane is not so strange or alien for A&A rules system.
My friend already played with it for cruiser vs plane, any “1” was hitting a plane.
Not so difficult to implement it for the Fighter.

Carrier keep the OOB cost, since both Fg and TcB are at -1 IPC each vs OOB cost.

The carrier dynamics of OOB will be kept in this HR as much as possible:
2 Fgs (A6D6C18) but able to directly shot down up to 2 planes with “1”
1Fg+1TcB (A7D7C19), able to directly shot down up to 1 plane with “1”
2 TcBs (A6-8D6-8C20) Can gain max A/D if they get Air Supremacy, if not they stay A6D6.
The planes place on board give strategical choice to any player.
And will be almost the same challenge vs other naval units.

In this manner, the airplane destruction will be lesser than with Fg A2D2 always hit planes first.
This fighter unit creates too much dynamics problems in not so rare battle situation.
The cost reduction will still help a little to compensate the Air destruction.

No more complicated bonus toward Fg.
All planes will get almost the same basic value A/D 3.

StB OOB: A4D1M6C12 when playing 1942.2

For Global 1940:
StB A3D1M6C11 +1A/+1M/+1 Dmg in SBR when starting from Airbase.

This clearly improve the need for operational Air Base.

For game balance of Germany (if needed):
either change some TcBs unit for Fg unit (make the reverse for UK or Russia) or
deny the Air Supremacy bonus in the first round / only allow bonus for paired match with Fg in the first round.

Not such a great change, but I think it still qualifies for the goal you intended about:
Fg, cheap but anti-air units,
TcB, the most useful air units, can deliver much damage than Fg, better against ground target.
StB, long range bomber, for attack only, not good at all in defense.

What is your opinion everyone?

Thanks for your fast answer,

Now fighters are too weak i feel

What happen if I keep Fg at 8 IPCs?
Will they become too OP?

And adding as you said +1D for Fg defending from an airbase (D4) (good idea) and also keeping hit air units on a roll of “2” or “1”.

Is it too OP vs TcB?

My “scrupules” come from the fact that I know my friends would not accept this HR.
It is far from OOB dynamics.
It have too many consequences.
With 1940e, it is your project and I’m sure you will get the chance to play-test everything.

Maybe it is not so radical change as I expect (or suppose), but I will wait until you told me before trying to push 1940e Fg A2D2 hit air first, to my friendly players.

But I stick to the fact that the OOB Fg and TcB are historically inaccurate, as you convinced me.

I’m looking for a 1940.2/1942.2 patch instead of a 1940.3 as seem to me your 1940e is.

@Uncrustable:

Maybe it is not so radical change as I expect (or suppose), but I will wait until you told me before trying to push 1940e Fg A2D2 hit air first, to my friendly players.

It was your idea, nothing like blowing your own idea out of the sky lol :P

As far as less change/impact, there is nothing better than just reducing TacBmb to 10 IPC. No other OOB change.

My ideas are not an intrinsic part of me. It is more joyful to share them and let them live by themselves, if they can somehow.  :lol:
But most of the times, they are just dead-born.  :-D

I don’t just want a lower cost Tactical Bomber.  :x
I want a Fighter unit and a TcB unit which are more historically accurate.  :cry:

It is your fault, you put this idea in my head.  :wink:

Glad to not derail your thread with my own whims. :-D

@Uncrustable:

Not such a great change, but I think it still qualifies for the goal you intended about:
Fg, cheap but anti-air units,

Now fighters are too weak i feel
think for 1 additional IPC you get a unit with same dice value (A3/D3) but always will get A4D4 when there are no enemy planes (no fighters needed)
Now you dont need fighters nearly as much, and tacbombers are unbalanced
Think for what you want to do, just remove air supremacy altogether (go back too OOB 1:1 with tanks and fighters)
And give fighters a defense bonus when defending from an airbase (D4)

Or just stay where G40e is at, and live with fighters losing 1v1s vs other planes

Honestly i still see no real balance flaw with:

Fighters-cost 8 A2D2. On all hits an air unit must be chosen first(choose your own casualty applies)
-Fighters defend at 3, if there is an operational friendly airbase present
Tac bombers- cost 10 A3D3, no SBR
-Tac bombers A4D4 if there are no enemy aircraft, and atleast 1 friendly fighter is present (Air supremacy bonus)
Strat bombers -cost 12 A3D1, SBR at 1 D6
-Strat bombers attack at +1 if launched from an operation friendly airbase
-Strat bombers receive +1 to SBR die if launched from an operational friendly airbase
-No changes to range or carrier rules of any air unit.
-Only strategic bombers may SBR, only fighters may intercept/escort on SBR

Here my adjusted version, taking in account your comments.

Fg A3D3M4C8, on a roll of “1” destroy an enemy aircraft (owner’s choice).

When defending an AB territory, up to 3 Fgs in it gain +1D and on a roll of “1” or “2” destroy an enemy’s aircraft.

TcB A3D3M4C10, when paired 1:1 with Fg get +1 A/D (max A4D4).
It can also get +1 A/D (max A4D4) via Air Supremacy (no enemy’s aircraft present, no need of any Fg).
No more pairing bonus with Armor, because Air Supremacy bonus is enough.

Cruiser must be A3D3M2C10
BB must be A4D4M2C18, 2 hits

Carrier keep A0D2M2C16, 2 hits.
The carrier dynamics of OOB will be kept in this HR as much as possible:
A) 2 Fgs (A6D6C16) but able to directly shot down up to 2 planes with “1”
B) 1Fg+1TcB (A7D7C18), able to directly shot down up to 1 plane with “1”
C) 2 TcBs (A6-8D6-8C20) Can gain max A/D if they get Air Supremacy, if not, they stay A6D6.
The planes place on board give strategical choice to any player.

And will be almost the same challenge vs other naval units.
A) CV C16+ 16**= 32 IPCs for A6D8** vs OOB A6D10= 36 IPCs,
B) CV C16+ 18**= 34 IPCs for A7D9** vs OOB A7D9 = 37 IPCs,
C) CC C16+ 20**= 36 IPCs for A6-8D8-10** vs OOB A6D8= 38 IPCs.

With Fg at 8 IPCs,
DD can be either OOB or
it can even be reduced 1 IPC to A2D2M2C7 IPCs.

In another way, Armor A3D3C6 can still be a good challenge vs Fgs A3D3C8.