Real value of units

@Imperious:

you probably mishandle something 'cause I get these results on the AACalc from the Forum:

i was reading the results incorrectly. I don’t use the calculators in general. I was looking at average IPC loss and i added in 3 BB per side, not just win %.

Well even if Cruisers are 9 IPC and Destroyers are 8, it just proves it cant be balanced by cost.

Which brings us back to the original point, that you must give the CA another value. Sims do not solve all problems.

We both agree that Cruiser can’t be at 9 IPCs vs DDs at 8. Cruiser becomes too Over Powered.
We both agree that Cruiser at 10 are not 50%-50% with DDs at 8 IPCs and that DDs have a slightly better hand.

But how this 2 statements can prove or disprove that DD and Cruiser can’t be balanced by cost?

And, sorry, I’m not sure to understand what you really mean by “balanced by cost”.

When you say “you must give the CA another value…”, you thought “…than 10 IPCs”? Is it right?

And, sorry, I’m not sure to understand what you really mean by “balanced by cost”.

That means to prove the Cruiser cost changes at either 12, 11, 10 , or 9 does not balance it with Destroyer based on combat sims. Thats why you need the first solution i offered, which is to give it a special value. So no more combat sims or %… they don’t work here.

Do you understand?

@Imperious:

And, sorry, I’m not sure to understand what you really mean by “balanced by cost”.

That means to prove the Cruiser cost changes at either 12, 11, 10 , or 9 does not balance it with Destroyer based on combat sims. Thats why you need the first solution i offered, which is to give it a special value. So no more combat sims or %… they don’t work here.

Do you understand?

has anyone brought up the idea that destroyers are the ones that are to powerful and maybe they are the ones that need adjusting? Think about IPC for IPC destroyers are better than everything else.

Yes that was done before. Issue is the DD has alot of special abilities that cant be solved with battle sims. Of course, if he could not stop subs, negate the first strike of subs and just rolled at 2 at SB, we could compare BB, CA, and DD.

If the DD was reduced in cost, the fight of 8 subs attacking against 7 DD gives the subs advantage, reverse gives the DD advantage. So again we are not about to make the DD 7 IPC, or nobody buys subs anymore.

I think the cruiser problem is possibly solved by making it a 4-3-2-12 ( one hit unit), or alternatively, if the Cruiser is fighting any smaller ship, it attacks at +1 ( only against DD, CV, SS)

@Imperious:

I think the cruiser problem is possibly solved by making it a 4-3-2-12 ( one hit unit), or alternatively, if the Cruiser is fighting any smaller ship, it attacks at +1 ( only against DD, CV, SS)

If we open this Pandora’s Box then:
Revised Cruiser A4D4M2C12, 1 hit, shore bombardment 1@4

It is the price to have a competitive unit but still be weaker than DD or BB.
Of course, this assumption is based on the % survival in BattleCalc.

About giving a bonus toward enemy’s unit, it adds a lot of problems against multi-ships fleet. This need to be solved.

I’ve summarized many options for cruiser here, but your idea need more tuning before I put it there:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=32165.msg1236708#msg1236708

Here are my House Rules Naval unit stats:
Unit Cost A D M Special ability
DD 8 2 2 2 ASW
LCV 10 0 1 2 Can carry 1 FTR or 1 Tac Bomb
HC 12 3 3 3 Offshore Bomb @3, Move 4 spaces with NB boost during the NC Phase only
BC 15 4 3 2 Paired with BB def on @4, AA built in 1xd6 @1
CV 16 0 2 2 Can carry 2x FTR or Tac Bomb
BB 20 4 4 2 Can absorb 1 enemy hit, Offshore Bomb @4 and AA built in 2xd6 @1 per round

What you think about HC (Heavy cruiser) and BC (Battlecruiser) compared with other units?

@angel said in Real value of units:

Here are my House Rules Naval unit stats:
Unit Cost A D M Special ability
DD 8 2 2 2 ASW
LCV 10 0 1 2 Can carry 1 FTR or 1 Tac Bomb
HC 12 3 3 3 Offshore Bomb @3, Move 4 spaces with NB boost during the NC Phase only
BC 15 4 3 2 Paired with BB def on @4, AA built in 1xd6 @1
CV 16 0 2 2 Can carry 2x FTR or Tac Bomb
BB 20 4 4 2 Can absorb 1 enemy hit, Offshore Bomb @4 and AA built in 2xd6 @1 per round

What you think about HC (Heavy cruiser) and BC (Battlecruiser) compared with other units?

No regular cruiser ? Just heavy and battle Cruisers ?
4 move HC ? Think not

So your 2 ship aa can also hit planes same time as there normal hit ? You get 2 hits ?
BB aa to strong. But waiting on your aa kill rule with normal roll.

@general-6-stars A&A game cruisers classes are actually Heavy cruisers. It can be added Light cruiser too with following stats: cost 9 or10 /A2/D2/M3 and no special abilities. AAA hits with not normal hit @4 but 2xdices only at 1 .

@angel said in Real value of units:

@general-6-stars A&A game cruisers classes are actually Heavy cruisers1d6 . It can be added Light cruiser too with following stats: cost 9 or10 /A2/D2/M3 and no special abilities. AAA hits with not normal hit @4 but 2xdices only at 1 .

No. When you roll for BB. You roll 1d6 dice for Normal roll @4. Then at same time you roll 2 D6 @1 for AA ?

@general-6-stars Normal roll its only against enemy ships or shore bombardment, against air units you roll 2xD6 @1. AAA phase is at begining of the combat round. I am thinking to add AAA to Heavy cruiser too but only for one round, BC 2 rounds and BB 3 rounds of combat.

So as the BB I can hit a ship and kill 2 planes in one round of combat. To strong

If u want I can post what I would use as values in morning but up to you.

@general-6-stars ya there is a possibility, but imagine if 2 BB are attacked by 6 planes. They can be destroyed so easy. Capital ships had a lot of AAA guns on deck. Yamato and Musashi were hit with over 6 dive bombs and 11 torpedos before they sunk. Yamato destroyed 76 enemy planes before it sunk. Sure, post it, its forum i want to see how other ppl think.

Ya but 99 percent of battleships weren’t the Yamato.

Ok good luck

Hhhmmm. No replies yet. How are all them Yamato Battleship values testing out ?

@general-6-stars waiting for your reply? :P
“If u want I can post what I would use as values in morning but up to you.” <<your last message.

Oh. Didn’t think you wanted to see them. I’ll post later today

Try this.

BB C18 AD@4 AA1d6@1 SH@4 M2 2 hits Boosts BC +1 on D
BC C14 A@4 D@3/4 AA1d6@1 M2
HC C10 AD@3 SH@3 M3
DD C8 AD@2 M2
SS C7 A@2 D@1 M2
AC C16 A@0 D@2 2 hits
EC C8 A@0 D@1

For BB and BC roll 2 dice. 1 for regular hit & 1 for AA shot.

You should reduce costs of planes since now you have ship AA shots.
Stg. Bomber C11 A@4 D@2 M6 SBR 1d6
Fighter C9 A@3 D@4
Tac Bomber C8 AD@2 Can pick target first round only.

These values give the Cruiser ( in your case HC ) and Tac bombers worth buying in game now.

@general-6-stars hmm your system is good, i think that HC should have AA shot too.
There are nations with low IPC, so they cant afford capital ships. imagine with only 1 plane you can destroy their entire navy without resistance.

1. Raise price for HC to 12 but add AA shot, in that case BC should go C15 IPC.
2. AC, HC and BC roll 1 D6 per round, and BB roll 2x D6 per round, AC can be same as BB. They had a lot AA guns too.
3. The Aircrafts cost remains the same as original, Tac bomber can be used only on land or coastal territories, and add new aircraft as carrier dive bomber/torpedo for naval use with reduces price, which can be used only at sea/ocean.
   I saw this house rule somewhere, i think it was on topic for Global 1943 House rules