Are bombers broken? : Axis bombers lead to allied dismay.

@Gargantua:

Hmm…

I find this thread particularly interesting - in regards to bombers.

We had this same discussion 5 years ago.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=13763.0;

Thanks, good info on bombing and supplementing forces; but I don’t see a reference to German bomber builds as a main unit or strategy.

@Uncrustable:

ive used to play revised alot, and still do occasionally on GTO, bombers are almost never purchased at 15 IPC, way overpriced
maybe 12 is too cheap, maybe not and AA guns just need some adjustment,

i personally like bombers at 12, they are purchased in almost every game, but so are fighters and, in G40, tac bombers
lets not get hasty and talk about nerfing bombers into nonexistence

giving bombers +2 to dice in SBR is necessary to give reason to buy and use strat bombers over tac bombers, and it wouldnt make sense if tac bombers did the same average damage to facilities as strat bombers…
maybe only give +1 to strat bombers and a -1 to tac bombers (with 1 being the low cap, that is if you roll a 1 you do 1 damage with tac bomber)

Its too early to talk about changes, first, lets play 12 or more games with this strategy, if the axis fail to lose, then consider changes such as IPC cost of bombers. Until then please be patient. I currently am playing 3 games, and I can maintain 3 games for a while by July I hope to have 6 or more games complete, with this first exhibition game being poorly managed to show the potential of Germany just by itself.

First test game:
Currently, I am matching USA with Germany in IPCs, however, the rest of the world is contributing towards the allies. Therefor, continued bomber builds are not likely during the end game, as I need to force the issue within the next 5 turns using fighters and ground troops…if I can’t, we’ll see if Japan needs to contribute on their side. Italy is at 24, while being convoyed for up to 10, if that is lifted and they get the +5 NO for no surface warships they will make a strong difference at 29 IPCs. I may get a chance to do a neutral crush (to drive them back into Egypt) as well if time permits. Even with a poorly played Japan and Italy, this is a very close game. Axis float at 7 cities out of 11 on the Europe side. Japan is weak, but not out if they return to home waters and redeploy that should take a minimum of 4 turns to become a threat. We’ll see if the allies remove them permanently.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31303.new#new

@Omega1759:

In this game James is referencing, I feel a well planned J1 would have done more damage. The Axis don’t stand a chance to take Egypt in the game and are greatly overpowered economically.

I didn’t want a strong Japan to win this game early, that wouldn’t prove the over powered nature of the air strategy. If Berlin can win while being “outproduced” on the Europe board by itself, it proves that the air campaign is broken. Berlin only has to outproduce Anzac and India to take Egypt, their remaining money is available to take London. Wait and see, in 4-7 turns we’ll know the answer. The allies are not in danger of winning on the Europe board, so Germany has time. They are 1 city away, if London or Egypt falls, that’s the game. Stay tuned. I am demonstrating that Economics are irrelevant unless you outproduce them 2 units to their 1 to have sufficient garrisons to defend both cities. They do not, at this time, have that much of a lead on Germany Economically.

@Auswanderersland:

hehe, well, for those that are poppin in, essentially, in my public forum game, I lost 1/2 the German airforce in R1.  I didn’t even sink a single ship in z111.(should have hit 3.33times).  I deliberately waited one turn due to lack of planes!  I felt I didn’t need to rush the issue, so my stack is one turn behind.

It is turn 3.  On turn 4 I will be in Belarus with the German stack and my opponent must either leave enough blockers to block 5 italian tanks, 2 planes, 2 bombers and 1 mec  in Smo or I can open Smo to take Moscow…or he 1/2 asses it and I destroy one of the 2 stacks.  Regardless, I only wanted to point out that he retreated and got damn near every available unit into Moscow.  He fought back and has traded well.  My point? There is nothing Russia can do.

Britain has been kicking my ass.  Every time I send a plane it dies against Britain ships.  Frustrating, but even after losing 6 planes for damn near nothing…I am holding on with Fortress Europe in place(i hope).  With 6 planes…the European board would be much safer imo, but oh well.

Japan is kicking ass.  Unlike JJ’s test game where he was showing how crazy things could be, screw that.  I am going for the kill.  I don’t want to lose the game to silly thought processes of what if or oh looky, i can send Japan’s fleet to get Egypt etc.  I am however, seriously considering a 3 german bomber move to Sink to allow German can opener for Japan fleet crush/India take - I would be much more prone to do so if I had my six german planes!  Tough to rely on blockers that can be strafed by German bombers in the pacific.  America will have its hands full, but may be able to ignore Europe as Britain is doing well fleet wise and may prove itself to give America the time it needs to put Japan back into the bottle.

Regardless, this game I feel is more indicative of how things went seriously wrong for Germany and Italy(lost their fleet), and yet they will be in Bry turn5.  I don’t know of any conventional game that can consistently make that boast.(unless Russia builds tanks…then things get a bit hairy - but only for a bit)

A properly played Japan is crucial to any Axis win.  To hell with Germany taking on the world alone.  Oh, and having an Italy that can add to the fun is nice should I be able to revive that old hide.

The game is on the play boardgame forums.  Its me and JJ vs bonusbent and another fella.

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=31356.45;topicseen

Your game is similar in starts to my PBEM game. It does look bleak in my test game, but there is still a lot of time I suspect before things break.

It’s obvious that a normal Japan and the German bomber strategy will not lose under our normal tests, but there are a few unconventional strategies that have potential. I am not saying Germany can always take on the world alone, I was merely demonstrating the ability to hold its own and in that particular game, it might be done…Still waiting for the dice to break my way (no Vaseline in that game). Even with every major battle going against me instead of for me, its still tight…At least I’ll get to demonstrate how bad dice have trouble defeating this concept. (Also demonstrated on your round 1 Germany).

@allweneedislove:

@JamesAleman:

…Still waiting for the dice to break my way (no Vaseline in that game). Even with every major battle going against me instead of for me, its still tight…At least I’ll get to demonstrate how bad dice have trouble defeating this concept…

i feel like we are playing 2 different games. one of the reasons(besides your good strategy and great play) your axis have done so well is that you have gotten great dice.

I’m not trying to offend, but I will try to defend my point as politely as possible. I am very grateful to play you and you are an excellent player and good sport for helping me test this concept.

What is important, I don’t take chances, my assaults are usually overkill due to my conservative nature (built upon 20+ years of Andy schooling me face to face with underpowered assaults on all fronts that never failed and that I always miserably failed to replicate, thus here I am today killing flies with sledge hammers) and thus dice are not really changing my outcomes. Due to game circumstances, you were “forced” to take some chancy battles, and none of them have failed…If fortune swung the other way and I “over” hit in a key battle, this game would likely be finished.

Remember when your three mech took out 3 out of 5 two’s out of 3 rounds of battle? Then that same round 7 a single Anzac fighter hits twice in two rounds to destroy 2 key artillery (should have been more if 3 mech didn’t kill 3 units) with no loss, a single( or more) survivors would have left me a land unit for my transports that were 1 turn from Queensland/South Australia or any island (and I didn’t mention this sequence started with a suicide USA bomber that hit and had a 33 percent chance of missing which left 1 less unit against the 3 mech and anzac fighter later rounds). Anzac is later forced to hit round 8 a Japanese fleet that that should have been a 2 round battle (you hit 4 times as I, but I should have hit 5 and that extra unit missed, then hits the following round and when I hit 1 lower only  hitting twice, that left a “4” for a round 3 hit that should never have happened), so it goes 3  combat rounds instead of 2 and I actually lost 2 Battleships as a result. If you think America should have done better on its turn against the navy, do the battle calculator and remember I chose to remove air units to keep navy that large.  Round 5 three Russian infantry attack 2 2’s and win with 2 1’s left over after 4 rounds of battle (those Russians are still harassing Japan), The German navy that hits 2 times first round….(that battle worked out, cause the 9 destroyers that should have been 6 or 7 only hit twice as if their weren’t 9 destroyers left over  :-D

Now, I have had good rolls too but I did not “need” them. Please show me an axis combat move battle, where I was not going to win by average odds ;)

I’m not mentioning the 2 bombers hit by 2 Destroyers because admittedly your aaguns are terrible.  :wink:

I hope this helps defend my point, I like you and am not trying to upset you, just clarifying what I mentioned earlier.