• Not to mention the majority of those we initiated…but that won’t stop Garg from rejecting reality.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @Jermofoot:

    Not to mention the majority of those we initiated…but that won’t stop Garg from rejecting reality.

    Oh so America initated 9/11?

    I was unaware.


  • @BJCard:

    Well lets look at the last few years…

    Iraq - Muslim Nation
    Afghanistan - Muslim Nation
    Iran (Bombings / Assassinations / Rhetoric) - Muslim Nation
    Libya (Supporting rebels / air campaign) - Muslim Nation
    Syria (Just watch today’s news, "America’s next step in Syria) Muslim Nation
    Yugoslavia/Bosnia - Muslim Nation
    Somalia - Muslim Nation

    You’re right, I don’t see anything in common (Sarcasm).

    Afghanistan- technically we are not at war with them, but we are fighting the Taliban

    Taliban- Muslim

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Killing people with Drones in Pakistan, and Yemen

    Pakistan - Muslim
    Yemen - Muslim

    Iran does also qualify.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Oh and what’s the U.S. committment in Mali?  I know the french sent troops there?

    Oh wait

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/05/01/301242/us-deploys-troops-in-mali-backing-french/

    US Deploys troops in Mali - Muslim Nation

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    Let’s look at this a different way… how many non-muslim nations are we in -conflict- with?


  • @Gargantua:

    Let’s look at this a different way… how many non-muslim nations are we in -conflict- with?

    Canada are in conflicts right now? oh oh ,I should watch more news I guess.


  • @Gargantua:

    Let’s look at this a different way… how many non-muslim nations are we in -conflict- with?

    How many governments of non-oil producing Muslim nations are we in conflict with? Are the conflicts actually about religion? Are the real motivations of the terrorists being obscured (both to them and us) to hide the class conflicts they are really rooted in?


  • @Gargantua:

    @Jermofoot:

    Not to mention the majority of those we initiated…but that won’t stop Garg from rejecting reality.

    Oh so America initated 9/11?

    I was unaware.

    Yes, because nothing ever happened in those regions prior to 9/11.  So, right you are.


  • No offense Garg, that’s some primitive reasoning.

    This is not aimed specifically at you but this is my rant for the last decade of American foreign policy.

    Most people in Muslim nations are just trying to live their lives without be killed by autocratic dictators or Islamists. I have spent a good part of my adult life fighting against some of the poorest people in the world and I honestly can’t say what for. I know they had nothing to do with attacks against America. The guys who planned 9/11 fled Afghanistan years ago, leaving illiterate locals to die for them. There is really nothing honorable or noble about what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan and the last decade have made me realize our foreign policy makes no fucking sense.

    Okay, so we are at war with the Muslims or terrorists or whatever.

    So what are we doing in Syria? Why are we arming Salafist rebels against a secular dictatorship?

    Why do we knowingly allow people who pose security risks into our country?

    What did overthrowing Saddam Hussein accomplish? Iraq isn’t even a strong US ally. It now has a Shiite prime minister with close ties to Iran. Was that really worth trillions of dollars?

    Isn’t it funny how most of our problems with Islamic terrorism come from Saudi backed Wahhabis and Salafists. Guess how many of the 9/11 attackers were Saudi themselves?

    At the end of the day, the War on Terror is nothing more than a sad attempt to find a new foreign enemy now that the Soviet Union is history. How can you wage war against a military concept or a religion with millions of adherents?

    You are more likely to be murdered by black or hispanic gangsters than get killed in an Islamic terrorist attack. Look up the statistics. Yet I don’t see anyone advocating droning the shit out of ghettos. The biggest threat to our lives is our own out of control government and failing economy.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    @Harry:

    No offense Garg, that’s some primitive reasoning.

    This is not aimed specifically at you but this is my rant for the last decade of American foreign policy.

    Most people in Muslim nations are just trying to live their lives without be killed by autocratic dictators or Islamists. I have spent a good part of my adult life fighting against some of the poorest people in the world and I honestly can’t say what for. I know they had nothing to do with attacks against America. The guys who planned 9/11 fled Afghanistan years ago, leaving illiterate locals to die for them. There is really nothing honorable or noble about what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan and the last decade have made me realize our foreign policy makes no ����ing sense.

    Okay, so we are at war with the Muslims or terrorists or whatever.

    So what are we doing in Syria? Why are we arming Salafist rebels against a secular dictatorship?

    Why do we knowingly allow people who pose security risks into our country?

    What did overthrowing Saddam Hussein accomplish? Iraq isn’t even a strong US ally. It now has a Shiite prime minister with close ties to Iran. Was that really worth trillions of dollars?

    Isn’t it funny how most of our problems with Islamic terrorism come from Saudi backed Wahhabis and Salafists. Guess how many of the 9/11 attackers were Saudi themselves?

    At the end of the day, the War on Terror is nothing more than a sad attempt to find a new foreign enemy now that the Soviet Union is history. How can you wage war against a military concept or a religion with millions of adherents?

    You are more likely to be murdered by black or hispanic gangsters than get killed in an Islamic terrorist attack. Look up the statistics. Yet I don’t see anyone advocating droning the ���� out of ghettos. The biggest threat to our lives is our own out of control government and failing economy.

    I totally agree with all of your sentiments.

    But not acknowledging that for whatever reason, there is a large group of “Islamic Extremists” or whatever it is your choose to call them - out their trying to kidnap, exploit, kill, or otherwise eliminate Americans, Westerners, and even Europeans is a serious lack of judgement.

    Anyways, Harry,

    You want to know what it’s all about at the end of the day? And what you’ve spent your life fighting for? What American soldiers risk thier lives every day for? The status quo.  And the price ain’t cheap.

    Let me clarify - For America to Stay #1 in the world, to be the power on the top (which is a good thing for the average world citizen), for America/the-west to have that voice of reason, and to be the world police, America/the-west pays in blood.  That’s it, and we don’t want that to change.

    Ask yourself this: If the US Military, sank all thier boats, disabled all their planes, and melted down all their guns and tanks tomorrow.  What would the world look it?

    Let me tell you, it would be total chaos. Every despot and their dog would be out their carving a new empire for themselves, and hundreds of thousands, if not millions would die.  That’s what makes the status quo important.

    As for Iraq, Afghanistan, and many other places, and why we’re there… the real reason is simple.  In maintaining the status quo (which saves lives) you have to deal with the opponents to the status quo, and there is a price to pay in blood. and more or less, it’s better to fight those fights over there, than it is to fight those fights here at home.

  • Liaison TripleA '11 '10

    No offense Garg, that’s some primitive reasoning.

    Violence is primitive and often without reason.  I stand by my claims.


  • @Gargantua:

    No offense Garg, that’s some primitive reasoning.

    Violence is primitive and often without reason.  I stand by my claims.

    That’s how I feel about your posts.  But I still read them.  :wink:


  • Is violence never necessary?  Is it always primative?

  • '12

    America should become North American energy independent in about 5-10 years.  I wonder what the middle east will look like then when the only reason to be there is to keep Israel safe for the second coming of jesus.  Support of mid east oil dictators et al is why many Muslims hate the west.


  • @MrMalachiCrunch:

    America should become North American energy independent in about 5-10 years.  I wonder what the middle east will look like then when the only reason to be there is to keep Israel safe for the second coming of jesus.  Support of mid east oil dictators et al is why many Muslims hate the west.

    Even if the US is energy independent, China and India will still buy Middle Eastern Oil,. so I think they will be just fine. 
    If Iran gets the atomic bomb soon, I don’t think the US will ever be out of the Middle East- we will have to prop up Israel, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia as a counterbalance.  ugh.


  • The short-term military gains are miniscule compared to the long-term damage that the targeted killing program causes. In the place of one slain leader, new leaders swiftly emerge in furious retaliation for attacks in their territories. And with each strike, it becomes ever easier to belong to a militant group in the region where your tribe lives.

    As Khaled Toayman, a young Sheikh from Marib and a son of a Yemeni member of parliament told me, “We are against terrorism and we seek to live in peace and dignity like anyone else in the world. I don’t hate America or Americans. I just want to know why my relatives are killed.”

    In my visits to the areas affected by drone strikes, I observed an increasing sentiment that America is part of a problem and not a solution, something that is hard for diplomats to feel while living disconnected from Yemenis in the emerging Green Zones of Sanaa. In Yemen, it’s impossible to win a war with drone strikes where basic services and human needs remain unmet. For a loaf of bread, you can push a hungry, desperate and angry young man to fight for al-Qaeda, possibly regardless of his ideological beliefs.

    An interesting take on drones.


  • Interesting take on drone strike.  Agreed that it is no way to win a war.  Would it be better to send in ground forces though?

    At some point you have to blame the government for not providing services to its people and/or denying things such as food aid to its people (perhaps sending any and all aid to the army).


  • “What is your thoughts on using drones to eliminate targets?”

    Oh ,well, where shall I start? Right now it is kinda killing my nerves, because:

    In 2001 the Germans created a Program to built Drones for Europe, the so called Euro Hawk. They crunched the nbrs. and figured it will cost the Tax payers about 1.74 Billion €. The body and the EADS program for the Drones were provided by the American Northrop Grumman Group wich built them selfs Drones I think.
    One Drone is now ready built (600 million € are allready spent for that) and would be ready to fly but received a NO GO!! from the Government because a important detail is missing on the Drones program, the program to evade other flying objects, planes etc. .
    Grumman will not supply this program (why should they,lol) and for Germany it is too costly NOW to change it (the whole cost allready raised to about 2.34€ billions).
    Five should have been built ,- FOR WHAT?? and those allready 600 million€ could have been spent on Kindergartens and Retirement home and simple stuff the people just need but NO, they spent it for Drones were they knew allmost right after the beginning that these problems will occur.
    So either way those Drones kill and I’m not sure if we need them in any paticular order or way to destroy lifes.
    on a side note: it is also not right to kill with an extended arm other peoples without giving them the chance in court, because it is not really clear or plaussible if the Targets are what they are, GUILTY!


  • haven’t read it all

    I agree with what I have read about drones being just another long range weapon easy to use.

    I also agree/think that the question is; where is the line between war and murder.

    However, I got another idea for this discussion; effectiveness. Effectiveness in the sense of winning the peace.

    Every weapon that makes fighting a war cheaper (human and monetary cost) makes it easier to use the weapons for the people in the field. This will probably lead to many cases where a dronestrike is used when an arrest is possible but have higher immediate cost. This way of fighting terrorism will make it difficult winning the peace. After all, I think everyone agree that the war in afghanistan at this point is about winning the peace.

    What comes next is not meant to be against the american millitary, more against the mentality of shooting first.

    I have friends that have been in afghanistan. They have told me that the americans are very good at solving any problem that can be solved with a gun, and are too willing to use that solution over other possible solutions. For my firends, this means that whenever they are moving into an area after the americans, their main job will often be damagecontroll. They will have to give money to the local population as compensation for damage, give first aid etc.

    I think one possible reason drones should not be used is that they can make it easier to do a strike rather than an arrest, when it is possible. Every strike where an arrest is possible makes it harder to win the peace.

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