Attacking defenseless transport = scramble?

@shadowhawk said in Defenceless transport rules need revision:

Currently if i got 100 transport and the enemy attacks with 1 sub, but i have an airbase and 1 fighter i can scramble. At that point i do have a unit that can shoot back so the rule does not apply and the enemy has to make 100kills with the sub.

No. Fighter and submarine can’t hit each other - so the transports are still defenseless.

Rulebook Europe 1940 2nd , page 20:

“Defenseless Transports
In a sea battle, if the defender has only transports
remaining and the attacker still has units capable
of attacking, the defending transports are all
destroyed, along with their cargo. You don’t have
to continue rolling dice until all the transports
receive hits. This will speed up combats. This also
occurs if the only combat units remaining can’t hit
each other. For example, if the defender has only
transports and submarines remaining, and the
attacker has only air units remaining, the air units
and submarines can’t hit each other, so the trans-
ports are defenseless. At this point, defenseless
transports are all destroyed, along with their cargo.
Attacking transports are not usually considered
defenseless, since they generally have the option
of retreating. If they can’t retreat, they are treated
the same as defending transports. Destroying
defenseless transports in this way still counts as
combat for the purpose of offshore bombardment
and similar rules.”

@shadowhawk said in Defenceless transport rules need revision:

Or if i got 20AA guns and the enemy attacks with 1 mech. Do we really want to roll dies till he hits 20x a 1?

No, as the same rulebook says on page 29:

“If a territory containing AAA units and no combat units is attacked, the AAA units are automatically destroyed after they fire (see “Air Defense”, below), but if only air units are attacking, at least one of them must survive the Air Defense in order to destroy the AAA. AAA units may never attack.”

Sure, why not?

There may not be a naval battle occurring immediately once the US Transport enters SZ6, since there are no Japanese combat ships in the water, however the Japanese Kamikazes and Fighters are protecting SZ6; thus they are able to act after the Combat Movement Phase is completed and before the Combat Phase begins.

Kamikazes cannot be used against transports or submarines so the transport may enter the “empty” SZ6 by itself in safety. However, upon entering SZ6 the Japanese Player now has the option to scramble to protect SZ6 and therefore the transports can now be attacked. There does not have to be a naval battle already in place for the planes to scramble; their scrambling itself creates the naval battle.

Axis and Allies Pacific 1940 Rulebook (2nd Edition)
Page 15 (Bold added by me)

Scrambling is a special movement that the defender can make at the end of this phase. It must be done after all of the attacker’s combat movements have been completed and all attacks have been declared. The attacker may not change any combat movements or attacks after the defender has scrambled.

A quick reaction team of no more than 3 defending fighters and/or tactical bombers (strategic bombers can’t scramble) located on each island or coastal territory that has an operative air base can be scrambled to defend against attacks in the sea zones adjacent to those territories. These air units can be scrambled to help friendly units in adjacent sea zones that have come under attack. They can also be scrambled to resist amphibious assaults from adjacent sea zones, whether or not the territory being assaulted is the territory containing the air base. They may defend against the enemy ships conducting the amphibious assault even if friendly ships are not present.

Thanks that’s sorta what I thought

@Krieghund:

@Young:

Hey Leo, if the subs sitting in 91 don’t want to attack so that they can move during the non-combat phase, you only need to declare that the subs will not be participating in combat even though there is a battle in the zone they occupy.

This is incorrect.  All units in the space where a battle occurs participate in that battle, whether or not they have legitimate targets.  As a result, they may not move in noncombat movement.

Any units that sea zone that you want to move elsewhere must move during combat movement.  This is legal even if they are not moving into combat if they are moving to escape combat (even if it’s just potential combat due to a possible scramble).

Sorry Krieghund, I will PM the OP and inform him of your correction.

Agreed.  Since it was the attackers mistake, the defender should get to choose if they want to re-roll the battle or just remove the bomber mid-combat and keep going.

I’d probly let them bring the bomber somewhere else if there were other attacks not yet rolled though.  I wouldn’t allow them to go back and re-roll another battle with the bomber included though, that ship sailed.

@wheatbeer:

Page 20 in the Europe rulebook says its possible:
“An attacking land unit can assault a coastal territory from an ally’s transport, but only on the attacking land unit owner’s turn.”

Clear enough! Thank you!

@wheatbeer:

The transport unit description doesn’t seem to contradict this.

I still am a bit confused because of the Transport unit description
“Amphibious Assaults: A transport can take part in an amphibious assault step of the Conduct Combat phase. That is the only time a transport can offload into a hostile territory.”

So in fact a transport can offload into a hostile territory under two circumstances:
1. own troops in an amphibious assault on it’s own combat move
2. allied troops (cargo) as part of the combat move of the allied nation
  (but here the Transport cannot be part of the amphibious assault because allied nations never attack together)

But no more arguing, I am convinced now.
Thank you again.
:-)

@variance:

UK fighters intercept SBR

That assumes the UK doesn’t badly need them for other schemes, and if they are present and intercept, who is to say that Germany won’t provide escorts?  It’s a good way to potentially whittle away the Fighter defense of Moscow before the last battle.  I also don’t know if the 70+ units for Russia is accounting for the output of every single Russian factory, if it is, then the UK can’t possibly guard all of these places.

The transports can retreat, but they can’t unload.