Technology

Chemical warfare could wrap together both the attack.and the masks.
But frankly, I don’t even think gas masks warrant being a tech.

No the whole point is to have separate techs where one harms you (gas) and you need to research the remedy ( masks)

If you had both at the same time, their would be no scramble to defeat the gas attacks. Thats the whole point.

I think the effect and procedure could be improved, but rolling dice and killing the result is way too powerful IMO.

Yes I agree.  Gas outright killing Infantry is powerful.  I think they should affect the units, not kill them.  Either immobilize them for a turn or they attack/defend at a lower die roll for a round.

I personally think you should strike gas off the list all together…it’s a very ‘local’ weapon, and simulating at the theater level is a bit silly…just think of it as being incorporated into a standard ‘attack.’

@ossel:

I personally think you should strike gas off the list all together…it’s a very ‘local’ weapon, and simulating at the theater level is a bit silly…just think of it as being incorporated into a standard ‘attack.’

Perhaps go with the suggestion, mentioned before but I can’t remember by whom, of making it like the artillery boost. Something like:

Gas: x number of infantry attack at 3 or less, or perhaps even 4 or less if you’re really into making gas potent.

A blinded soldier is as “combat ineffective” as a dead one.
The element of fate has to enter gas attacks. We aren’t going to calculate windage, or distance from trench to trench, or if they have French piss masks or UK full face mask.
A die roll simulates how fate effects the gas.

Wrapping up the two (masks and gas) makes sense because
A) whoever invents gas first is going to have gear designed to handle it and prevent friendly fire
B) The enemy when developing masks is going to develop gassed of their own.
C) A tech that does nothing but neuter another tech is a worthless tech

Imagine if in AA1940 if there was a tech called “Anti-Rockets”: your anti rockets reduce the damage done by enemy rockets to half.
Thats dumb. If I get that tech and no enemy power has rockets I’d flip the damn board over.
Techs that are techs against techs is not “Larry Style”
Then again, neither is a tech that does two things….but anti-tech techs just clogs up the charts with useless things.
Who is going to target gas if the enemy can just target gas masks next turn?
Who would target Heavy Bombers if 1940 had an “anti-heavy bombers” tech?

Either use a die to simulate variable levels of carnage for the gas. And limit the carnage against enemy powers who also have the gas tech.
And remember! I did stipulate that only ONE gas attack can be made per turn. So killing 4 infantry maximum isn’t outrageous.

The IL proposal of “one extra artillery shot” is practically nothing.

For simplicity’s sake the gas tech could be reduced to:
3. Chemical Warfare - Choose one territory this turn and roll a die. “1-3 Remove that many infantry”, “4-6 no effect”. A defending power who also has the Chemical Warfare breakthrough may have the die rerolled.

So this way, the most that could be killed is 3, in one territory. And if you target someone who also has the gas tech, they can change a 3 to another number, no effect or less.
It would be risky to ask for a 1 or 2 to be rerolled.

@BJCard:

Gas outright killing Infantry is powerful.  I think they should affect the units, not kill them.Â

Yes, especially since some of the gasses used in WWI were disabling agents (like tear gas) rather than lethal ones, and since even the supposedly lethal ones had variable degrees of effectiveness (depending on a range of factors).

Did Gas kill off entire divisions in WWI? or did it affect their ‘combat effectiveness’?  I still think a set number of enemy troops (maybe by rolling a die) can only defend at a 1 or 2 if they are gassed.  Or they are unable to make a combat movement on their turn… something like that.

I know my techs aren’t set in stone, or wholeheartedly accepted by the community as of yet, but “Observation Balloons” is already an artillery boost.

Observation Balloons - In battles where no aircraft are present, one of your artillery counts as having air support.

Gas has to be….nasty. Because it was. It can only kill in territories you are attacking, so realistically what its doing is weakening the enemy so much that in all the fighting its as if you got 1-3 more hits than you really did.
I guess a decision could be made that gassed units are merely “hit” already and get to shoot back to make the effect more mild.
But if a techs impact becomes too mild, then whats the point?

Would gas be better if it was?:
V (this is something I could wholeheartedly accept) V

Chemical Warfare - Choose one territory and roll a die: “1-4 that many enemy units may not roll defensively”; “5-6: no effect”. A power who also has the chemical warfare breakthrough may ask that the die be rerolled.

There has to be a reason to only use it in big battles, so that it isn’t just an automatic hit you can use in Africa. I don’t want to see the 4 germans down their gas their way across the continent.

@oztea:

The IL proposal of “one extra artillery shot” is practically nothing.

Don’t see the problem with this, actually. It was basically an artillery effectiveness booster. If you’re going to remove 4 infantry from a single front, you’re basically simulating a nuke, not an artillery-delivered gas attack. Yes, gas was nasty, but so were machine guns, artillery, barbed wire, and all the other ‘nasty’ things that killed people in WW1.

Let’s take a step back and look at historical impact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_weapons_in_World_War_I

The killing capacity of gas, however, was limited – only four percent of combat deaths were caused by gas.

Keeping with this statistic, I don’t think we should be seeing more than one or two deaths per round, per front, as a result of gas.

@oztea:

Would gas be better if it was:

Choose one territory and roll a die
1-4: that many enemy units may not roll defensively during this combat.
5-6: no effect

Or a variation:

1-4: that many enemy units may not roll defensively during this combat.
5: no effect
6: wind shift; the gas affects your troops instead of the enemy

Well Ossel, under a gas rule that generates casualties the effect would be 1-3 dead or 50% of the time none dead

However, I am being convinced that the gas shouldn’t generate casualties, but instead make X units just not able to shoot back.
Wrap gas masks in by allowing other powers with the same tech to have the random die be rerolled (to simulate their masks working well or not)
1-4 infantry unable to shoot back is a big deal actually, because they are the kings of defense in this game at ‘3’

As an artillery boost, some other tech can do that.
Gas is our chance to make something special and unique. Observation balloons could logically boost artillery, and fills out another slot on the tech chart.
The chart cant just be:

Gas
Gas masks
Better planes
Better boats

Thats boring. we need the whole tech tree fleshed out. 3 each of land, air, sea and economic advances (for a total of 12) is how Larry likes to do it.

I’m glad that SOMEONE is finally agreeing with my suggestion that Infantry have lower effectiveness in some way vice outright death.  I like the not being able to defend, but able to soak up a hit on defense.

Yeah, if you’re going to simulate it all, making the defenders unable to fire back is probably the most palatable. It’s also the most practical: just remove defender dice from the battle board.

Ok, so lets get the ball rolling on a consensus here: Are any other techs acceptable in their current form by most of us participating in this thread?
I wish there was an easier way to do this….

Air/Naval Techs
1. Undersea Warfare - Your Cruisers prevent enemy subs from submerging at a 1:1 ratio and your Subs may submerge before the first round of combat.
2. Advanced Aeronautics - Your aircraft become 3/3/3 (up from 2/2/2)
3. Mine Sweeping - Roll a die before your ships attack into a minefield: That many of your ships are immune to enemy mines (your choice).
4. Observation Balloons - In battles where no aircraft are present, one of your artillery counts as having air support.
5. Advanced Mines - Your Naval mines strike enemy ships on ‘2’ or less.
6. Naval Aviation - Your Battleships may serve as a landing space for one of your own aircraft. Battleships attack and defend at 5 with naval air superiority.

Land/Economic Techs
1. Tank Pioneer - You may build tanks before turn 4, after turn 4 you can buy tanks for 5 IPCs.
2. War Bonds - At the end of your turn roll two dice, collect the higher number as IPCs
3. Chemical Warfare - In one attack, roll a die; 1-4: that many infantry do not roll defensively; 5-6: No effect. If the defender also has the Chemical Warfare Breakthrough he may have the die rerolled.
4. Conscription - For each 4 Infantry you purchase, receive a 5th for free.
5. Radio Communications - During combats where friendly forces are also in the contested zone, roll a die. That many friendly artillery may also participate in the attack
6. Advanced Transportation - Four of your infantry may move 4 territories this turn (amongst friendly territories worth 2 IPCs or more)

@oztea:

4. Conscription - For each 4 Infantry you purchase, receive a 5th for free.

I think that many countries involved in WWI already had conscription before the war started; as I recall, only Britain and the US (of the eight player countries in the game) had all-volunteer armies (at least initially).  So this tech might not apply to everyone.

@CWO:

@oztea:

4. Conscription - For each 4 Infantry you purchase, receive a 5th for free.

I think that many countries involved in WWI already had conscription before the war started; as I recall, only Britain and the US (of the eight player countries in the game) had all-volunteer armies (at least initially).  So this tech might not apply to everyone.

Maybe call it ‘Improved Conscription’?

My vote is we trim this down, not sure if others will agree, but here goes. Green is good, red needs work, strikethrough I think we should cut to get to 6 techs.

Air/Naval Techs
1. Undersea Warfare - Your Cruisers prevent enemy subs from submerging at a 1:1 ratio and your Subs may submerge before the first round of combat.

• Don’t like the ‘early submerge’ thing.
  2. Advanced Aeronautics - Your aircraft become 3/3/3 (up from 2/2/2)
  3. Mine Sweeping - Roll a die before your ships attack into a minefield: That many of your ships are immune to enemy mines (your choice).
  *Why not roll this into #1? Maybe call it ‘Destroyers’ or something.
  4. Observation Balloons - In battles where no aircraft are present, one of your artillery counts as having air support.
• I think it can be assumed that observation balloons are omnipresent - only when aircraft arrive does one side get an advantage.
  5. Advanced Mines - Your Naval mines strike enemy ships on ‘2’ or less.
• Don’t think mines were updated very often (might be wrong) - we can assume that they stayed constant from the beginning of the war.
  6. Naval Aviation - Your Battleships may serve as a landing space for one of your own aircraft. Battleships attack and defend at 5 with naval air superiority.

Land/Economic Techs
1. Tank Pioneer - You may build tanks before turn 4, after turn 4 you can buy tanks for 5 IPCs.
2. War Bonds - At the end of your turn roll two dice, collect the higher number as IPCs

• Everyone’s going to dive for this immediately.
  3. Chemical Warfare - In one attack this turn, roll a die: 1-4 that many infantry do not roll defensively; 5-6: No effect. If the defender also has the Chemical Warfare Breakthrough he may have the die rerolled.
  4. Conscription - For each 4 Infantry you purchase, receive a 5th for free.
• Most (if not all) nations had conscription even before the war.
  5. Radio Communications - During combats where friendly forces are also in the contested zone, roll a die. That many friendly artillery may also participate in the attack
  6. Advanced Transportation - Four of your infantry may move 4 territories this turn (amongst friendly territories worth 2 IPCs or more)
• I’d rather this be a separate rail house rule than a tech. Again, nations had established rail lines to move their troops quickly for decades before the war started.

Since I just shat all over your list, which I’m sure you put a lot of work into, here’s some suggestions of techs that were developed during the war, if you’re dead set on making a 12 item tree. I’ll leave it up to you to figure out the effects.

Anti-Aircraft guns
Bombers
Stormtrooper tactics (both sides)
Long-range battleship bombardment
Creeping Barrage
Pill Boxes

Note that I haven’t included things from your original list that I thought were good, like advanced fighters and gas.

Ok, well we are making some progress.

Id like to stick with 12 techs though. 6 is neat, simple, condensed. But 12 has been the standard for games of this scale for 5 years now and counting.
The 6 techs seems like a step backward, just like taking away tech tokens was a step backward.
Perhaps if we have 12 techs we could have 2 charts, one with techs favorable to the allies, some with techs favorable to the CP, you can research either chart, but the UK might not want to risk getting advanced subs.

Now for some counter criticism. ill try to rationalize how I came to these suggestions a little bit and why.
1. Undersea Warfare wrapped advanced subs into it so the Central powers can use the tech too.
2. This is a no brainer tech
3. Wrapping this into #1 would make that tech a paragraph long though perhaps 3 & 5 could merge
4. This was a way of getting better artillery without cutting and pasting the standard “Advanced Artillery” from 1940. Also, this makes it an AIR breakthrough, that planes can neuter.
5. Not necessarily updated mines, but MORE mines, MAGNETIC mines, or DUMMY mines (to make mine clearing take longer) Think of this as similar to the Radar tech in 1940
6. Im surprised you like this one, it has gone through a few incarnations, but this seems to be the most reasonable approach so far.

1. Also surprised you like this, but seeing as 6 IPC is being rumored as too much for tanks, this might be a good tech. OR bumping tanks defense to ‘2’ as an alternative?
2. I ripped this off 1940 to fill up the chart, and its something ECONOMIC. Best of 2 dice makes it not god awful like it is in 1940
3. Chem warfare, as we have discussed seems to have been fleshed out well enough.
4. Conscription is another grasping at straws I made for an ECONOMIC tech, something like Improved Shipyards instead? Or perhaps heavy industry? Artillery are 10 IPCs for 3?
5. Im actually kind of proud of this one. I watched ‘The Lost Battalion’ recently and radio directed artillery was an important development of the war.
6. I want this tech rule set to be STAND ALONE. I know people are going to make rail rules later, so I could ignore rails, but if someone doesn’t use some other rail rule set and only uses these techs I still wanted a movement bonus tech in here somewhere. Perhaps just “your Infantry can move 2 amongst territories you control” but that tech would be trash for the US.