@WILD:
I’m sure this is the intent of the rule, and will be clarified at some point.
Some point being, what, the Second Edition?
I would say that if Russia is in Revolution, you must remove all Russian control markers. Then it’s up to the remaining players as to who can establish control of the area to place its marker and start collecting cash. If there are units of only one Ally in the tt when RR occurs then its automatic, if none its the first country of either side to move units in. Until then consider the tt to be in a state of anarchy.
Not sure if that would be a good idea. The other allies can’t get to Russia easily, so if a revolution is forced, it will ALL become CPs controlled and a rather large IPC boon to them. At least if you weren’t using the optional rule, the CPs would have to take Moscow.
@WILD:
I’m sure this is the intent of the rule, and will be clarified at some point.
Some point being, what, the Second Edition?
Maybe we should wait to see the entire rule book before we jump off the deep end. There very well could be a side bar, or more info on the matter at hand. If there are some problems with wording, or intent Krieghund is pretty damn quick at clearing things up once the game is released.
Don’t give me that crap about ppl may not know about a Faq, or play only OOB etc… They will work it out on their own, or know someone on one of these forums. In today’s age they would have to be living in a cave or on a deserted island w/o power to be so narrow minded, or just choose to be that way (and that’s their problem).
Edit, below is how I would see it too (basically said the same thing). Removal of control markers line clears things up nicely. Once Russian units, and control markers are removed most territories would revert back to their orig owner, or be given to a power having units left after the withdraw of Russian forces. There could be some territories up for grabs (first come first served).
I would say that if Russia is in Revolution, you must remove all Russian control markers. Then it’s up to the remaining players as to who can establish control of the area to place its marker and start collecting cash. If there are units of only one Ally in the tt when RR occurs then its automatic, if none its the first country of either side to move units in. Until then consider the tt to be in a state of anarchy.
Removing control markers has the nasty problem of respawning neutral armies. If Russia took Sweden, fighting and beating its standing army, then vanishes and leaves no trace Sweden was ever invaded, now their home army is reborn.
Removing control markers has the nasty problem of respawning neutral armies. If Russia took Sweden, fighting and beating its standing army, then vanishes and leaves no trace Sweden was ever invaded, now their home army is reborn.
:roll: I doubt that’s the case. Who would play that way anyway?
While we’re on the subject, I’d like to say that the idea that Russia went from an Imperial government to a Communist state overnight is a very Western (if not American) idea, and grossly oversimplifies the actual events.
I’ll be working on house rules that correctly model the Provisional Government, the Bolshevik uprising, and the Civil War in Western Russia.
:roll:
Another reason the Revolution could be a good thing for the Allies is that it helped bring America further towards the Allies, as Wilson saw the Imperial regime in the same light as those of the Central Powers.
Therefore versions with an American entry track would see the RR move the USA a couple of stages further towards intervention.
What is your Revolution/Morale tracker based on Flashman (if you’ve posted it in another thread, feel free to direct me there)? If it’s based purely on casualties, I might have a problem with that…
Casualties
Loss of territory
Failure to make a major attack in a turn
Having your capital bombed
War fatigue (increases at the end of every year)
Morale can go up as well as down, but the trend for every power should be downwards, giving the game a natural lifespan as successive empires collapse.
I also have a two-stage breakdown; Disorder & Revolution. It’s possible to recover from the first, very difficult to come back from the second. Think of them in terms of the two Russian Revolutions. In disorder a power continues to fight, but with outbreaks of mutiny; in Revolution civil war breaks out. A country in Revolution is considered defeated for game victory purposes.
Ok, I like that. There were major propaganda factors at play, and often the casualty statistics were grossly misreported.
I’ve been reading The Myth of the Great War (http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Great-War-Military-History/dp/0060084332), and I was surprised to find that up until the last year of the war, Allied losses on the Western Front were consistently double German losses, but they were reported to the general public (and the civilian government) to be grossly lopsided in the other direction.
In the end, it was a combination of factors that caused the revolutions in Europe, and from what you’ve posted here, it seems like you’ve represented that well.
Also discussed in this thread:
Ossel I recomended that book a while back. Best WW1 book I ever read. Really puts in perspective how close the Germans were to winning the war. His last paragraph in the book is fantastic writing.
When I play this game, I’m going to have all unoriginally Russian territories stay under control of Russia but allow them to be occupied by both Allies and CP, like friendly neutrals from Global. My rationale is that everything with a Russian-control marker can’t be occupied, but with a neutral or aligned marker can.
Russia should just turn into one giant strict neutral.
Though that ignores the ability of the Allies to help the White Russians, the neutral rule is the most simple.
It’s lame that the whole thing turns into one giant Sahara.
When I play this game, I’m going to have all unoriginally Russian territories stay under control of Russia but allow them to be occupied by both Allies and CP, like friendly neutrals from Global. My rationale is that everything with a Russian-control marker can’t be occupied, but with a neutral or aligned marker can.
So the CPs can’t attack Holland?
Serbia and Romania are off limits?
You need to remove all Russian control markers otherwise the game is broken.
When I play this game, I’m going to have all unoriginally Russian territories stay under control of Russia but allow them to be occupied by both Allies and CP, like friendly neutrals from Global. My rationale is that everything with a Russian-control marker can’t be occupied, but with a neutral or aligned marker can.
So the CPs can’t attack Holland?
Serbia and Romania are off limits?
You need to remove all Russian control markers otherwise the game is broken.
I mean, anything with a Russian-control marker printed on the board, not counting the tiny ones on Serbia and Romania. Everyone can invade; the only territories off-limits to all are the original territories of Russia not either controlled or contested by the Central Powers.
What happens to other Allied units in these tts?
What happens to other Allied units in these tts?
I would say in the unlikely event that other allies units share a territory with russian units they must move to another non-russian territory if able.
I prefer that they fight Communism.
Determine a method for deciding which surviving Russian units are Reds, and which are Whites.
The Allies control the “Whites”, who will include all Russian units outside Russia proper; the CPS control the “Reds”, including those in Moscow (and adjacent tts?). Use WWII Russian units for Reds, who cannot operate outside original Russian tt.
These sides fight each other for control of Russia; only when one has completely eliminated the other is the civil war over and Russia can re-enter as a power in its own right. Units of other nations are free to intervene. They will each need to manage their own economies.
I prefer that they fight Communism.
Determine a method for deciding which surviving Russian units are Reds, and which are Whites.
The Allies control the “Whites”, who will include all Russian units outside Russia proper; the CPS control the “Reds”, including those in Moscow (and adjacent tts?). Use WWII Russian units for Reds, who cannot operate outside original Russian tt.
These sides fight each other for control of Russia; only when one has completely eliminated the other is the civil war over and Russia can re-enter as a power in its own right. Units of other nations are free to intervene. They will each need to manage their own economies.
For the most part, I like this, but it bothers me a little that other powers can participate (by bringing units in), since in actuality Russia basically bowed out of the War before the Civil War started.
I think it’d be better if no non-Russian units were allowed in Russian tt’s until the Civil War is over. Then, Communist Russia can enter the war (if it chooses to) on the side of the CP’s or a resurgent Imperialist Russia can reenter the war on the side of the allies.
However, I fully expect the (Big) War to be over before the Civil War…which is consistent with history.
