@superbattleshipyamato Right. alot more complications introduces longer play. More areas means longer play, More units longer play. I wish their was a light 12 page version with only about 6-10 more units, not 60 more. The map would have about 60% less areas and play would take 2-3 hours but still be buckets of dice concept. That would be my wish plus dedicated piece sets or a version that used counters like nova games edition.
SUBS Overpowered -and- SUB Clarificaitons
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I believe that cruisers, aircraft, and destroyers can only hit detected submarines. If an undetected submarine fires, it becomes detected that round and can be hit by any of the aforementioned units. Submarines can always hit undetected submarines.
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I believe that cruisers, aircraft, and destroyers can only hit detected submarines. If an undetected submarine fires, it becomes detected that round and can be hit by any of the aforementioned units. Submarines can always hit undetected submarines.
This statement is absolutely true!
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Submarines can always hit undetected submarines.
So a sub is almost as a good as a destroyer other than it cannot vector planes or battleships onto the undetected enemy sub and cost/firepower ratio is different?
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Submarines can always hit undetected submarines.
So a sub is almost as a good as a destroyer other than it cannot vector planes or battleships onto the undetected enemy sub and cost/firepower ratio is different?
Yes. Also when a sub attacks another sub it is normal combat(no first strikes).
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Here is another scenario. A cruiser and sub attack another sub. Both subs lose their first strike capability and the cruiser can not fire on the defending sub. If the attacking sub misses and the defending sub hits then the defending sub gets a first strike roll against the cruiser or can submerge.
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Here is another scenario. A cruiser and sub attack another sub. Both subs lose their first strike capability and the cruiser can not fire on the defending sub. If the attacking sub misses and the defending sub hits then the defending sub gets a first strike roll against the cruiser or can submerge.
Uh… There are alot of problems with this example… ???
1. You are saying that if a defending sub hits, it gets another shot instantly, meaning it gets two shots in one round?
2. Why the hell would anyone select their sub as a casualty, knowing that their cruiser is going to get FREE SHOT immediately after?!?!?!
3. Can’t the cruiser retreat per decision by the attacker, before pressing it’s attack?
4. This isn’t stipulated in the rules anywhere…
5. If two or three subs are being attacked, this opens up the door to alot of problems.
In closing, with the rules remaining unchanged…
I stand by my claim that for $5:
-1 units that can’t be hit by any naval unit without 1 to 1 detection
-2 get TWO rolls on defense,
-3 get preemptive strikes on attack and defense,
-4 that can retreat or submerge on attack and defense
-5 that can preemptive strike destroyers that cost $8
-6 Can damage battleships (reducing thier abilities) prior to combat
-7 Roll at the same OR BETTER attack value as $8 destroyers (4)Are retardedly overpowered.
Keep in mind this is also the only unit in the game that can kill a battleship, carrier, cruiser, transport, without even rolling.
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This just ruined the game for me.
How are the allies supposed to keep pace at $8 to $5 ratio’s in the atlantic? Against units that roll better (5), which can’t be hit? And get double shots on defense?
There better be a better explanation than “oh you should keep destroyers in your fleet”.
4 destroyers for ($32 or Uk average income) vs 6 subs ($30)
four rolls at 4, vs two PREEMPTIVE rolls at 5 and four rolls at 5.
Why don’t you just make tanks cost $3 for Germany. that can only be detected 1:1 with tanks that cost $6, and get preemptive strikes.
That’s more balanced.
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Worse, you can’t even SCRAMBLE to defend your destroyers?!?!?!?
UK builds 3 destroyers, and has 3 planes. It gets attacked by 6 subs. Scrambling everything
the subs score 3 hits. 2 preemptive… UK rolls, and gets 4 out of 4 of it’s remaining dice (Crazy good dice!)
They can still only hit 3 subs… and all thier units just got washed off the board again. 15 ipcs for 24.
AM I MISSING SOMETHING HERE?!?!?!
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Submarines can always hit undetected submarines.
So a sub is almost as a good as a destroyer other than it cannot vector planes or battleships onto the undetected enemy sub and cost/firepower ratio is different?
WRONG.
Subs are better than destroyers, cruisers, carriers, or battleships. On any scale.
For every 2 destoyers built, the axis can (for cheaper) build 3 subs that attacker better than dst defense, with preemptive capabilities against those same dst’s….
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I really need to reread the rules again. Garg, destroyers do not negate sub first strike at all or just 1 to 1 on an enemy sub?
Tigerman77, a sub+cruiser attacking another sub….the attacking cruiser cannot attack a defending sub without a 1-1 destroyer so the only reason to bring it along is for fodder?
I could see if the attacker took of the sub foolishly…then the NEXT round the sub would get a first strike IF the attack were pressed a second round even tho the cruiser could not hit the sub, kind of like attacking a second round when the only thing remaining is transports where all the attack units were lost?
It still makes subs a bit too good of a bargain for me. No longer do you need destroyers to pick of marauding subs but a swarm of cheap subs yourself. It could easily devolve into a war of attrition with subs. Perhaps not a bad thing…. In any event, it changes many things.
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Chill a little Garg! Let me explain my earlier senario. First: who would attack 1 sub with a sub and a cruiser?? A very inexperienced player. Second: I should have stated that afte the attacking sub is lost the round is over and the cruiser may retreat….and he should. I was just using this as an example of he subs not being included in detection for other vessels! If the sub and cruiser were to attack another sub and cruiser and the attacking sub was taken as a loss, then on the next round of combat if the cruiser choose to stay and fight then the sub would get a first strike before the attacking cruiser.
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I really need to reread the rules again. Garg, destroyers do not negate sub first strike at all or just 1 to 1 on an enemy sub?
Tigerman77, a sub+cruiser attacking another sub….the attacking cruiser cannot attack a defending sub without a 1-1 destroyer so the only reason to bring it along is for fodder?
I could see if the attacker took of the sub foolishly…then the NEXT round the sub would get a first strike IF the attack were pressed a second round even tho the cruiser could not hit the sub, kind of like attacking a second round when the only thing remaining is transports where all the attack units were lost?
It still makes subs a bit too good of a bargain for me. No longer do you need destroyers to pick of marauding subs but a swarm of cheap subs yourself. It could easily devolve into a war of attrition with subs. Perhaps not a bad thing…. In any event, it changes many things.
If 1 destroyer attacks 1 sub, there is no first strike for the sub.
If 1 destroyer attacks 2 subs, 1 sub gets a fist strike on a roll of a 2 or less(not very strong)
If 1 destroyer is attacked by 2 subs, 1 sub gets a first strike on a roll of 4 or less(5 or less for Germany)The object is to keep your Capitol ships surrounded by DD’s and CA’s
This also keeps the US from buying 10 transports per turn and pounding Germany or Japan with just infantry! -
I only get animated when I care. :)
I like this game, and I dun wanna see it ruined! :P
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Chill a little Garg!� � Let me explain my earlier senario. First: who would attack 1 sub with a sub and a cruiser??� � A very inexperienced player.� � � Second: I should have stated that afte the attacking sub is lost the round is over and the cruiser may retreat….and he should. I was just using this as an example of he subs not being included in detection for other vessels!� � If the sub and cruiser were to attack another sub and cruiser and the attacking sub was taken as a loss, then on the next round of combat **if the cruiser choose to stay and fight then the sub would get a first strike before the attacking cruiser.**� �
So the cruiser can attack a submarine? because the sub becomes and undetected AFTER it fires?
So basically, there is NO SUCH THING as combat with -undetected- submarines, unless it’s sub on sub.
WOW - THANK YOU!
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The object is to keep your Capitol ships surrounded by DD’s and CA’s
This also keeps the US from buying 10 transports per turn and pounding Germany or Japan with just infantry!That said, there is absolutely no point in building capitol ships in this game. Especially battleships, ever.
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Chill a little Garg!� � Let me explain my earlier senario. First: who would attack 1 sub with a sub and a cruiser??� � A very inexperienced player.� � � Second: I should have stated that afte the attacking sub is lost the round is over and the cruiser may retreat….and he should. I was just using this as an example of he subs not being included in detection for other vessels!� � If the sub and cruiser were to attack another sub and cruiser and the attacking sub was taken as a loss, then on the next round of combat **if the cruiser choose to stay and fight then the sub would get a first strike before the attacking cruiser.**� �
So the cruiser can attack a submarine? because the sub becomes and undetected AFTER it fires?
So basically, there is NO SUCH THING as combat with -undetected- submarines, unless it’s sub on sub.
WOW - THANK YOU!
Yes!
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The object is to keep your Capitol ships surrounded by DD’s and CA’s
This also keeps the US from buying 10 transports per turn and pounding Germany or Japan with just infantry!That said, there is absolutely no point in building capitol ships in this game. Especially battleships, ever.
I disagree with not buying carriers! Specially the US!! Battleships I can see your point, but remember the battleship was made obsolete by the carrier!
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I disagree with not buying carriers! � Specially the US!! � Battleships I can see your point, but remember the battleship was made obsolete by the carrier!
Battleships are “obsolete” by these rules - agreed
Cruisers are also “obsolete” by these rules- however.And though I’ll agree there is a place for Carriers (though not much of one)
For the $36 carriers cost to load… and for what they bring to the game (2 fighters at 6 and 6) they don’t matter like they used to.
4 Destroyers at 4 ($32 for 16 defense power) is better on defense than a fully loaded carrier ($36 for 16 defense power, some of which can only shoot air). Especially considering the sub problems I’ve noted.
I mean for $36, (the same money) I’d rather have 7 submarines…
And if my opponent is going to have 7 submarines, then I am forced to buy 4 destroyers anyways.
So Carriers are also obsolete for the most part too, unless you REALLY want to bring in planes to a remote location. But you won’t have planes to bring, because you’ll be building destroyers/subs…
And for the record…
7 subs at 2 defend better WITH PREMPTIVE STRIKE than a fully loaded carrier defense, FOR LESS MONEY
Oh and you can take 7 hits as opposed to 4…
I rest my case…
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Arguably,
6 subs at 2, ($30 for defense power 12 over 6 hits) is also better than
4 destroyers ($32 for defense power 16 over 4 hits)And we’re talking thier weak “defence” not even their 4 or 5 attack… LOL!
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Here is my challenge to ALL of you… to prove my point.
Build ANY navy for $100 in IPC’s. And put it attack and defense against 20 axis submarines ($100).
You’ll lose everytime unless you only use subs against it.
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