Protect your children and grand children

@JWW:

I am not aware of anyone who is holding the RCC responsible for the corruption and crimes of the few?

@MrMalachiCrunch:

I agree with Jesse Ventura, the catholic church should be prosecuted as an organized crime syndicate.

Jesse Ventura on Bill Maher 4/16/10 saying the Catholic Church should be prosecuted using the RICO laws set up to fight organized crime.

Disclaimer - I did not watch the video (JWW’s or MrMalachi’s), but here I believe is someone advocating that the Church be prosecuted (therefore responsible) for the crimes of the few.

Full disclosure, I am Catholic, and active and educated. I do believe those who are at fault should be prosecuted and so should those who aid or harbor them. The religion itself should not be punished or treated as a “crime syndicate” as suggested above. That seems rather ludicrous.

Also for the record, Jesse Ventura is a complete, world-class moron. (Ahhh… that feels better)

I do agree with Garg too… Progress increasingly means that everything is relative, and who are you to judge someone else? I do not doubt that what we called pedophilia yesterday, and may or may not be “minor attracted persons” today, will tomorrow be very legal, if not totally embraced. That is where political correctness and non-discrimination lead.

Maybe you are right… perhaps that is not directly related to this thread though. My apologies.

Well, the only problem with not going after the organisation is that the organisation can shield itself behind fall guys.  Imagine going after a mafia group and only being able to jail the person and take the personal possessions but not the holding company that actually controls the wealth.

If it was a lone pedophile who managed to avoid to detection its one thing.  If its a system that protects individuals then its the system that must pay or you will have a series of “martyrs” who will take one for the team once every few years.  Individual priests have no assets to take to compensate the victims.  If the entire system is made to pay then everyone (most everyone) in the system will go out of the way to ensure the system does not get taken down by a few pedophiles.  Where is the risk now to the system?

I think my hate for Pedophiles is stronger than anyone else’s at AA.org.  I believe the death penalty is appropriate for these individuals as there is no rehabilitating or fixing them. (Guillotine anyone?)

That said…

Is what we’re talking about a Documentary? or Mockumentary?

I’m not convinced it’s an -even-, or objective portrayal of the events.  Some dot connecting maybe… But do you really think Ratzinger was a diddler? Or deliberately protected diddlers on his watch?  I’m not so sure.

We’re never going to hear both sides of the story.

You know JWW, maybe I should make a youtube video up of how you’re an A&A.org cheater, and present some miniscule data, and calculate all your dice to show that you know… you had some kind of “unrealistic edge”, and you were friends with Commander Jennifer so… you must be a cheater.  With a few followers thumping around saying it’s true, that’s all anyone would need to tarnish your name! Even ifyou’ve never cheated in your life.

Accusations are almost worse than convictions these days.  If real evidence was out there, that REAL crimes were commited/covered-up, godless organziations like the UN, or elements of the government would be ALL-OVER-IT, and would actively bring the catholic church to it’s knee’s.

I suggest watching the movie DOUBT.

@MrMalachiCrunch:

Well, the only problem with not going after the organisation is that the organisation can shield itself behind fall guys.  Imagine going after a mafia group and only being able to jail the person and take the personal positions but not the holding company that actually controls the wealth.

A mafia group IS a criminal organization. Breaking the law is part of their intrinsic function, no?

The Catholic Church is a religious organization which is not set up to prey on children or defraud people; even if such instances occur. It does not excuse them, but surely in any global organization so large and so influential, these things will happen. That may sound callous, but it is more just a recognition of statistical probabilities. I do not see the reasons or methods for global sanctions or punishment on an entire religion.

If the organisation or system is a system that defends pedophiles then it IS a criminal organization.  If I am the division president of a large corporation and I pour poison down the sewers and my boss’s protect me and put me in a new country where I can do the same thing it is right to sue the company for damages and not just me the division president.  It is not just one bad division president but my bosses who allow me to continue to break the law.  Just because the companies mission statement does not mention they are criminals does not make it impossible for them to be a criminal company or organisation.

Higher ups in the church hierarchy have protected pedophiles, lets see how deep this protection runs.  If it can be proven that there is a system in place to protect pedophile priests….then it IS a criminal organization just as surely as the mafia.  Shame is not enough punishment for getting caught screwing children.

Garg, your issues with the US Gov and anything else with USA concerns me.  :roll:

@MrMalachiCrunch:

If the organisation or system is a system that defends pedophiles then it IS a criminal organization.  If I am the division president of a large corporation and I pour poison down the sewers and my boss’s protect me and put me in a new country where I can do the same thing it is right to sue the company for damages and not just me the division president.  It is not just one bad division president but my bosses who allow me to continue to break the law.  Just because the companies mission statement does not mention they are criminals does not make it impossible for them to be a criminal company or organisation.

Higher ups in the church hierarchy have protected pedophiles, lets see how deep this protection runs.  If it can be proven that there is a system in place to protect pedophile priests….then it IS a criminal organization just as surely as the mafia.  Shame is not enough punishment for getting caught screwing children.

Okayyyy… I will not necessarily address this, but how would you think such an organization be prosecuted?

Should all church members be prosecuted? All clergy, all financial supporters, just all priests, the organizations rights to have a physical presence in a given country or city? How is this prosecution accomplished and how far does it go? It seems like if this were a criminal organization then it should be entirely deconstructed or disassembled… I have absolutely no idea how you would propose that for the Catholic Church. There are over a billion members worldwide; the vast majority of which (clergy and lay) have had nothing to do with sexual abuses.

@SS:

Garg, your issues with the US Gov and anything else with USA concerns me.  :roll:

Why’s that?

Your own government talked about killing it’s own citizens with Robots a week or so ago. :P

Don’t get me wrong, I’d pick America over anyone else -including- my own country as the “world’s policeman”, and if the United States was seriously threatened, I’d be first in line to sign up and defend your soil.

But that doesn’t mean I’m going to sit idly by when the notion/standard America represents begins to erode into a corrupt or police state.  And I’m certainly not going to entertain ‘witch-hunting’ people because they are connected to a religious practice.

@JWW:

@LHoffman:

but how would you think such an organization be prosecuted?

Because this question: how do we fix this organization, change it, prosecute it etc. is indeed so difficult, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t attempt to address it. It is the hard things in life that are worth the effort. I mean, what the hell, the crimes continue! What the hell is the other option? Hope things change by themselves?!? Hope that prayer solves the problem? really….do nothing…

I do not mean that it shouldn’t be attempted if it is really what you want to pursue. My questions seek for answers, which no one has yet been able to provide. Suggesting these things or earnestly wishing they would be done is one thing, but to have a rational plan of action or contingency is another. Of course I am skeptical of how your reparations and sanctions could be accomplished, but part of that stems from you providing no recourse so far apart from self-education and complaining.

@JWW:

As a former practicing RC, whose entire family is RC, who was educated in their schools etc….I have some fondness of the institution but perhaps Martin Luther had it right in the 11th, 12th, 13th century (I forget the actual date), perhaps we need a new reformation, perhaps this time without bloodshed. Since practicing/supporting members ARE the institution, not just some old guys in fancy robes, the onus is on these individuals (LH) to change it or risk it being changed by others.

You should know then that the Church is not a democracy and never has been. A worldwide public outcry of all lay-person Catholics would certainly have some effect, but cannot power a direct change; that can only happen from within, by the Church leadership. Media exposure and public backlash have already served to root out many of these hidden evils. And I would venture to say that people do prosecute when they discover crimes. The priests have nothing with which to compensate the victims, but the Church does and, should, pay for lawsuits.

I recall that OWS at several sites like Cleveland , and Atlanta got thier Rape reports hushed away.

OWS Dallas got some report of a consenting underage runaway girl who shared sleeping bags, weed, and more w a few guys who would have been jailed for their activities w her.

They did not police themselves well, and the government authorities had to clear them out.  Rape was tangent to the main reason to the clear out OWS sites.

If I had a daughter, OWS type activities by her would be severely discouraged.