American Entry

@Imperious:

There you go again when your arguments fail, you keep harping on claims that are not my central point. My central point again is that the note triggered the war.

So regardless of whether or not it triggered the war, do you admit that unrestricted submarine warfare was overall a more important factor?

In other words, if the note was the last straw, was unrestricted sub warfare a bigger pile of straw?

Which factions? Please cite your sources saying that there were still factions believing the note to be fake after two public admissions by Zimmermann himself that it was genuine.

factions for not going to war and for going to war.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 01:13:42 pm
The reason why you counted up the words was because you favor shallow reasoning. The note was the trigger that caused the war, not 8 mentions of submarine in a speech you idiot.

Ooo! now I’m an idiot. You must really be running out of ammo for your empty argument. �

But my argument is the note triggered the war , which defeats all the other ones you invent as my argument. :roll:

If I cared enough to take the time to count how many times on average over your last few posts you say “the note triggered the war, get over it” or the like, I would probably actually be impressed. It’s hard to imagine with the meds available nowadays that someone could be so delusional. IL, you must be of the camp that says that saying something over and over again makes it true.

I’ll see if it works.

I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire. I am a millionaire.

The problem is you are not a millionaire. I am actually but that is not for this thread. The fact is that the note triggered the war. The ‘meds’ argument must be another fluff argument in an attempt to bury the truth with nonsense posts?

Darn. Nothing. I guess I will have to settle with backing up the claims I make with evidence instead of just repeating them. It’ll be tough, but I’ll manage.

Yea and while your managing that failed argument, keep ignoring my point that the note triggered the war. Every post you make that invents “gee i thought we are talking about which event had the greatest impact” which is not my argument in an attempt to generate a bunch of dust and smoke and mirror arguments because you hate the fact that i am correct in knowing that the note triggered the war. I will keep repeating the truth since you don’t understand it yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3y3QoFnqZc

It entertains me to no end laughing at how ridiculous you have become  :mrgreen:

So regardless of whether or not it triggered the war, do you admit that unrestricted submarine warfare was overall a more important factor?

In other words, if the note was the last straw, was unrestricted sub warfare a bigger pile of straw?

So in order words you are beginning to admit the note caused the war ( triggered it?)

I made no definite claims about anything except what was the final straw, the note.

USW was not it, it would take that note to solidify public opinion not sinking merchant ships because that was too distant to hit home for the American people. An implied threat would be what caused it…that note.

@Imperious:

Which factions? Please cite your sources saying that there were still factions believing the note to be fake after two public admissions by Zimmermann himself that it was genuine.

factions for not going to war and for going to war.

Which ones? Where is your source? Did these factions actually still believe the note was fake after Zimmermann’s two admissions it was real? Where is your source?

@Imperious:

So regardless of whether or not it triggered the war, do you admit that unrestricted submarine warfare was overall a more important factor?

In other words, if the note was the last straw, was unrestricted sub warfare a bigger pile of straw?

So in order words you are beginning to admit the note caused the war ( triggered it?)

Dude.

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

@Imperious:

The note was what triggered the war. When on this earth will you stop dancing around this white elephant?

It can be admitted that it was the “last straw,” but for the last straw to matter, there has to be many other straws. No one is saying the Zimmerman telegram is totally irrelevant, but please find a source (if you can) that states that as being a more important reason than USW (don’t forget that the note was sent because Germany was planning on resuming USW)

Bold, underline, and italics added.

That was post 22. That was 3 pages ago.

@Imperious:

I made no definite claims about anything except what was the final straw, the note.

Dude.
I hope this is just your ignorance shining forth and not your lying habit.

I’m going to be adding a lot of bold and underline to highlight how erroneous your above quote is (I suspect it’s intentionally erroneous, trying to cover your tracks, backtracking and saying ‘I never said that’ and giving lame excuses for how such and such was meant to be interpreted differently).

@Imperious:

What you seem to keep missing is that the note drew US into the war not unrestricted submarine warfare.

@Imperious:

Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

@Imperious:

It takes many decades of reflection to sort out the causes, and everybody knows the Note was the major contribution. Just acknowledge that and move on.

@Imperious:

I only said the Zimmerman note was the vital influence to draw US into war. Now if you want to create new arguments in an effort to bury the truth that the Zimmerman Note was the key factor and not UNRESTRICTED SUBMARINE WARFARE, OR THIS NEW THING YOU INVENT.

OK, four is enough. I might be able to find more, but the point is clear.

If all of these are just mistakes on your part and all you ever meant to say was the the note was simply the last straw and you never meant to say the note was the most important factor, then you really have no business posting on an English forum as you have no functional command of the language to speak of.

@Imperious:

USW was not it, it would take that note to solidify public opinion not sinking merchant ships because that was too distant to hit home for the American people.

Where is your proof of that?

According to World History, 5th Edition (McDougal Littell, 1997), “When the Germans returned to unrestricted submarine warfare in 1917, they knew their decision would lead to war with the United States.” Did they know the telegram would get out?  Or did they know that destroying US shipping would cause the US to join? We both know the answer is the second one. Are you adult enough to admit it?

I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Which factions? Please cite your sources saying that there were still factions believing the note to be fake after two public admissions by Zimmermann himself that it was genuine.

factions for not going to war and for going to war.

Which ones? Where is your source? Did these factions actually still believe the note was fake after Zimmermann’s two admissions it was real? Where is your source?

It is common knowledge that when the note was first released, American public thought it was trick by the British to draw us into war. The American public was still against the war until latter when the note was proven to be authentic. If you knew anything about this period you would have known that.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 02:53:16 pm
Quote
So regardless of whether or not it triggered the war, do you admit that unrestricted submarine warfare was overall a more important factor?

In other words, if the note was the last straw, was unrestricted sub warfare a bigger pile of straw?

So in order words you are beginning to admit the note caused the war ( triggered it?)

Dude.

Yep i know truth is hard to swallow.

Quote from: vonLettowVorbeck1914 on January 08, 2013, 06:43:21 pm
Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 02:11:20 pm
The note was what triggered the war. When on this earth will you stop dancing around this white elephant?

It can be admitted that it was the “last straw,” but for the last straw to matter, there has to be many other straws. No one is saying the Zimmerman telegram is totally irrelevant, but please find a source (if you can) that states that as being a more important reason than USW (don’t forget that the note was sent because Germany was planning on resuming USW)

Bold, underline, and italics added.

But it was the trigger for war, keep avoiding the truth.

That was post 22. That was 3 pages ago.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 02:53:16 pm

I made no definite claims about anything except what was the final straw, the note.

Dude.
I hope this is just your ignorance shining forth and not your lying habit.

I’m going to be adding a lot of bold and underline to highlight how erroneous your above quote is (I suspect it’s intentionally erroneous, trying to cover your tracks, backtracking and saying ‘I never said that’ and giving lame excuses for how such and such was meant to be interpreted differently).

Keep making fluff arguments knowing all the while that the note triggered the war.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 02:11:20 pm
What you seem to keep missing is that the note drew US into the war not unrestricted submarine warfare.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 03:20:04 pm
Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 07:23:02 pm
It takes many decades of reflection to sort out the causes, and everybody knows the Note was the major contribution. Just acknowledge that and move on.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 08, 2013, 07:23:02 pm
I only said the Zimmerman note was the vital influence to draw US into war. Now if you want to create new arguments in an effort to bury the truth that the Zimmerman Note was the key factor and not UNRESTRICTED SUBMARINE WARFARE, OR THIS NEW THING YOU INVENT.

OK, four is enough. I might be able to find more, but the point is clear.

Right and i am right in that the note triggered the war. It was the final straw.

If all of these are just mistakes on your part and all you ever meant to say was the the note was simply the last straw and you never meant to say the note was the most important factor, then you really have no business posting on an English forum as you have no functional command of the language to speak of.

If adding yet another erroneous admission that you have wasted 50% of your total post count arguing against thet fact that the note was the final trigger that caused our entry into the war, then my god have mercy on your smoke and mirrors soul.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 02:53:16 pm
USW was not it, it would take that note to solidify public opinion not sinking merchant ships because that was too distant to hit home for the American people.

Where is your proof of that?

According to World History, 5th Edition (McDougal Littell, 1997), “When the Germans returned to unrestricted submarine warfare in 1917, they knew their decision would lead to war with the United States.” Did they know the telegram would get out? � Or did they know that destroying US shipping would cause the US to join? We both know the answer is the second one. Are you adult enough to admit it?

More smoke and mirrors? The note triggered the war.

I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Wrong as usual. If that were true the British would never have needed to bring up the Note because USW events would have alone drawn the US into war. The British had to play their last card and make it known that they broke the German code. The note triggered the war not USW.

Anytime you post, remember the note triggered the war. Only argue against that which is my point. Otherwise buzz off and smoke and mirror somebody else. If you keep this up the Indians will find us and scalp you.

Now keep repeating: the note triggered US entry into the war, not USW.

Every sentence you make repost that sentence until it burns into your skull.

@Imperious:

It is common knowledge that when the note was first released, American public thought it was trick by the British to draw us into war. The American public was still against the war until latter when the note was proven to be authentic. If you knew anything about this period you would have known that.

You should write this “common knowledge” a thank-you note for supporting your argument when legitimate historical sources do not.

@Imperious:

Anytime you post, remember the note triggered the war. Only argue against that which is my point.

I will argue against whatever I wish (maybe you actually are a millionaire, and that’s why you think you can boss people around.), and in this case, when I argue against the idea that the note was the most important/significant cause of US entry into the war, I AM arguing against a point you made at least four times, as I have quoted in a recent post above.

You say now that the note being the final trigger (last straw) is all your point has been after I shot down with direct evidence your claim that:
@Imperious:

Right and in this case, the note was the most important factor. It caused our entry in the war. No denying that.

You can say all you want that all you ever said was that the note was the “last straw” or “final trigger.” But it’s right there in black and white (or light blue in this case as it is quoted) that you claimed that it was ALSO the MOST IMPORTANT factor.

I have admitted countless times that it is quite plausible that the note was the last straw, the one that broke the camel’s back. You keep on harping on that to distract from your claim you made that the evidence does not support, that the note was the most important cause.

According to the sources we have, what was the most significant cause of the US entry into World War I? (not the one that happened last chronologically; there is a difference)

I am starting to sense a pattern in IL’s behavior from this and the "Playable nations"thread.

Step 1. Make a claim without actually examining evidence pertinent to the claim.
Step 2. Argue for the claim citing “common knowledge” and misread sources that don’t actually support the claim.
Step 3. Devolve into insults and distraction tactics when it is realized the evidence is piling up against the claim.
Step 4. Repeat a different claim from earlier over and over again to make people forget the other claim was ever made.
Step 5. Deny the claim from step 1 was ever made and keep repeating the different claim from step 4.

@Imperious:

Now that we know what triggers the war, you assign this as a fixed event in time from where the US player enters the game because that is a fact we can count upon since it is what caused the US entry.

But what caused the note to be sent? Or was it destiny that the note be sent then, regardless of what was happening in the war?

@Imperious:

The US could care less about what is going on in Europe. They cared only about how the war effected them, and the note was a implied threat against our continent.

You mean to say that the huge US financial investments in the allied powers before US entry were of no interest to Americans?

@Imperious:

I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Wrong as usual. If that were true the British would never have needed to bring up the Note because USW events would have alone drawn the US into war. The British had to play their last card and make it known that they broke the German code. The note triggered the war not USW.

So without the note USW would never have led to a declaration? Or is it the case that the note merely sped the declaration along? You make it sound like the British release of the note was the last possible chance to get the US in the war, while the US just ignored its ships going down or just didn’t care.

I dont know what this mess is about but i do know it was the telegram that caused the entry of America.

I could also say it was the last in a long line of issues and perhaps the important thing. Really dont care except what does this have to do with this game?

Who even cares?

@Lucas:

I dont know what this mess is about but i do know it was the telegram that caused the entry of America.

I could also say it was the last in a long line of issues and perhaps the important thing. Really dont care except what does this have to do with this game?

Who even cares?

If we are going to have a house rule to share in the game where the US entry is dependent on something other than a scheduled turn, it would help to establish what was important in making the US go to war to make the game mechanic historical.

@Lucas:

I dont know what this mess is about but i do know it was the telegram that caused the entry of America.

I could also say it was the last in a long line of issues and perhaps the important thing. Really dont care except what does this have to do with this game?

Who even cares?

BTW, welcome to the forums!

Could you clarify a bit what you mean that it “caused the entry”? You are saying it was one of the causes, not the sole cause, right (the second line suggests that you see other causes, I just want to make sure I interpreted correctly.)?

So to generate a rule, you two have to argue for 2 or more pages long?
Come on. This has essentially gotten off topic, again, all in a disguise that its to help make a rule. (Whether you believe that or not)

Its really ridiculous. Make up your own rules, if some one has a problem with it and doesn’t like your rule, so what?
There is no need for arguing that detracts from the topic and doesn’t get anywhere.
You may think you’re contributing to the topic, but it really isn’t.

@ch0senfktard:

So to generate a rule, you two have to argue for 2 or more pages long?
Come on. This has essentially gotten off topic, again, all in a disguise that its to help make a rule. (Whether you believe that or not)

Its really ridiculous. Make up your own rules, if some one has a problem with it and doesn’t like your rule, so what?
There is no need for arguing that detracts from the topic and doesn’t get anywhere.
You may think you’re contributing to the topic, but it really isn’t.

Personally I actually do think it important that it be shown that US entry was an extremely important (I would go as far as to say the single most important) cause for the US to enter, in that it shows the idea should be present in the mechanic to have the US enter. It seemed to me that the thread started out discussing ideas that pertained to that entry. I have found that when people come together to iron out significant rule changes, the effect can be pretty cool, and I know it would be better than I can do by myself.

I do apologize, however, for taking the bait far more than was necessary to show my point as plausible grounds for the mechanic.

It seems that the telegram was the last item that caused the war since it was the last event. I remember in school something that i read saying this.

but this has nothing to do with the game or does it?

Anyway, i will play the game as it is. This stuff should be in another section.

@Lucas:

but this has nothing to do with the game or does it?

In my opinion it does. In a thread titled “American Entry” it seems pretty relevant to me to sort out why the US entered the war, since the OP talks about trying to get the entry to be tied to historically logical causes and the flow of the war in-game instead of a scheduled turn. Perhaps, though, this should be in house rules now or at least once the game is released.

But what caused the note to be sent? Or was it destiny that the note be sent then, regardless of what was happening in the war?

It was a last resort, since USW was not gonna trigger it. Sorry but facts are facts. The note triggered the war.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 01:59:48 pm
The US could care less about what is going on in Europe. They cared only about how the war effected them, and the note was a implied threat against our continent.

You mean to say that the huge US financial investments in the allied powers before US entry were of no interest to Americans?

What i mean is the note triggered the war, whatever nonsense you want to drag me into is never gonna work. Just address what was the last straw that got us into war. It was the note.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 04:24:57 pm

Quote
I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Wrong as usual. If that were true the British would never have needed to bring up the Note because USW events would have alone drawn the US into war. The British had to play their last card and make it known that they broke the German code. The note triggered the war not USW.

So without the note USW would never have led to a declaration? Or is it the case that the note merely sped the declaration along? You make it sound like the British release of the note was the last possible chance to get the US in the war, while the US just ignored its ships going down or just didn’t care.

I made no claims, if i had to guess the British made the correct assessment in releasing the note and sacrificing the knowledge they broke the code. What is so difficult about this?
Nothing you do is working for like the last 40 posts.

@Imperious:

But what caused the note to be sent? Or was it destiny that the note be sent then, regardless of what was happening in the war?

It was a last resort, since USW was not gonna trigger it. Sorry but facts are facts. The note triggered the war.

Where is your proof that USW was not going to trigger it?

“This section lists the events of the year 1917, the fourth year of the war.  This year saw the adoption by the German high command of the disastrous policy of unrestricted submarine warfare - disastrous in that it brought about America’s entry into the war within the space of a couple of months, and ultimately led to her downfall the following year.”

http://www.firstworldwar.com/timeline/1917.htm

This source clearly states that USW brought about America’s entry into the war. Not the note. Do you have a source that clearly states the telegram’s decisive effect on the decision to go to war (not public opinion, a related, but different notion)?

@Imperious:

What i mean is the note triggered the war, whatever nonsense you want to drag me into is never gonna work. Just address what was the last straw that got us into war. It was the note.

$2 billion in investments in the allied powers is hardly nonsense, even for a “millionaire” like yourself.

@Imperious:

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 04:24:57 pm

Quote
I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Wrong as usual. If that were true the British would never have needed to bring up the Note because USW events would have alone drawn the US into war. The British had to play their last card and make it known that they broke the German code. The note triggered the war not USW.

So without the note USW would never have led to a declaration? Or is it the case that the note merely sped the declaration along? You make it sound like the British release of the note was the last possible chance to get the US in the war, while the US just ignored its ships going down or just didn’t care.

I made no claims, if i had to guess the British made the correct assessment in releasing the note and sacrificing the knowledge they broke the code. What is so difficult about this?
Nothing you do is working for like the last 40 posts.

That’s good, you are at least admitting now that at least one of your ideas is a guess and not based on evidence. The telegram helped get public opinion against the Germans but as the actual sources (not guesses and not “common knowledge” have shown it was far from the most significant factor, and USW would have caused american antry with or without the note. What the note did likely do, was speed up the entry. But it’s safe to say at this point that according to the evidence the note was hardly the decisive factor, or you would have found SOMETHING substantial to support that. It’s 1 am, so good night.

Oh good more entertainment!

Where is your proof that USW was not going to trigger it?

I will say again that the note triggered the war, again you want to filibuster inane drivel and ancillary arguments that are not my own.  Keep trying. Keep failing.

“This section lists the events of the year 1917, the fourth year of the war.  This year saw the adoption by the German high command of the disastrous policy of unrestricted submarine warfare - disastrous in that it brought about America’s entry into the war within the space of a couple of months, and ultimately led to her downfall the following year.”

http://www.firstworldwar.com/timeline/1917.htm

This source clearly states that USW brought about America’s entry into the war. Not the note. Do you have a source that clearly states the telegram’s decisive effect on the decision to go to war (not public opinion, a related, but different notion)?

I do have the fact that the note triggered US entry, no matter how you want to rearrange the blocks. No matter how many times you want to create and invent new arguments, you will fail.

And it just shows how desperate you are. :-D

Quote from: Imperious Leader on Today at 09:42:51 pm
What i mean is the note triggered the war, whatever nonsense you want to drag me into is never gonna work. Just address what was the last straw that got us into war. It was the note.

$2 billion in investments in the allied powers is hardly nonsense, even for a “millionaire” like yourself.

Oh value added words. Not working the note triggered the war. You fail.

Quote
I have been agreeing all along the the Zimmerman note was important in America going to war. It’s quite possibly the event that took things over the edge. But, things had to have been pushed to the edge in the first place, and from the sources, unrestricted submarine warfare overall pushed much further than the note. You can claim the note was the most important, that it pushed more than USW did, and then say that you never made those claims when the evidence starts piling up against you, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sources we have clearly point to USW as being more significant.

Wrong as usual. If that were true the British would never have needed to bring up the Note because USW events would have alone drawn the US into war. The British had to play their last card and make it known that they broke the German code. The note triggered the war not USW.

So without the note USW would never have led to a declaration? Or is it the case that the note merely sped the declaration along? You make it sound like the British release of the note was the last possible chance to get the US in the war, while the US just ignored its ships going down or just didn’t care.

I made no claims, if i had to guess the British made the correct assessment in releasing the note and sacrificing the knowledge they broke the code. What is so difficult about this?
Nothing you do is working for like the last 40 posts.

That’s good, you are at least admitting now that at least one of your ideas is a guess and not based on evidence. The telegram helped get public opinion against the Germans but as the actual sources (not guesses and not “common knowledge” have shown it was far from the most significant factor, and USW would have caused american antry with or without the note. What the note did likely do, was speed up the entry. But it’s safe to say at this point that according to the evidence the note was hardly the decisive factor, or you would have found SOMETHING substantial to support that. It’s 1 am, so good night.

Another new argument? LOL. The note was the final straw that triggered the war. Get over it. Now read and learn:

http://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/world-war-i/essays/zimmermann-telegram-and-american-entry-world-war-i

Zimmerman Telegram:

Other points influenced entrance to the war, but the Zimmerman Telegram (sometimes called the “Zimmerman note” or “Zimmerman telegraph”) finally pushed the US to war.

We call this the final straw, not buzz off.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_the_US_become_involved_in_World_War_1

@Imperious:

@Imperious:

It was a last resort, since USW was not gonna trigger it. Sorry but facts are facts. The note triggered the war.

Where is your proof that USW was not going to trigger it?

I will say again that the note triggered the war, again you want to filibuster inane drivel and ancillary arguments that are not my own. � Keep trying. Keep failing.

How is it not your argument? You say right there (where I added bold to highlight) that USW was not going to trigger the war! And then when I ask for proof for that claim, a historical source or two stating that war would not have occurred if USW had gone on longer without the note, you try to say you made no claim. Is it perhaps because you don’t have any evidence? (rhetorical question).

@Imperious:

I do have the fact that the note triggered US entry, no matter how you want to rearrange the blocks. No matter how many times you want to create and invent new arguments, you will fail.

If by my failing, you mean you ignoring the evidence and saying the same thing over and over again, then I suppose yes, I would be “failing.” You made plenty of claims outside of the note being the last straw. I did not invent those. You did. Chief among those are your statements that the note was more important a cause than USW and that Wilson did not mention the note in his war speech because he was worried he would give an intel source away by mentioning the note (even though the note was published in NEWSPAPERS and confirmed by its AUTHOR as authentic long before the speech!).

@Imperious:

That’s good, you are at least admitting now that at least one of your ideas is a guess and not based on evidence. The telegram helped get public opinion against the Germans but as the actual sources (not guesses and not “common knowledge” have shown it was far from the most significant factor, and USW would have caused american antry with or without the note. What the note did likely do, was speed up the entry. But it’s safe to say at this point that according to the evidence the note was hardly the decisive factor, or you would have found SOMETHING substantial to support that. It’s 1 am, so good night.

Another new argument? LOL. The note was the final straw that triggered the war. Get over it. Now read and learn:

What in my post was a new argument? I already said it sped up entry. I already said it affected public opinion. I already said USW was more decisive. I already said that USW would lead to war, note or not. I suppose it’s new that I mention what time it is, but that’s hardly an argument, unless you would like to contest what time it was when I made the post (given your penchant for distraction, I would not be surprised).

@Imperious:

Other points influenced entrance to the war, but the Zimmerman Telegram (sometimes called the “Zimmerman note” or “Zimmerman telegraph”) finally pushed the US to war.

We call this the final straw, not buzz off.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_did_the_US_become_involved_in_World_War_1

I said in post 22 that is was probable that the telegram was the final straw. You keep harping on that one point that was settled pages ago. I suspect it is because you are trying to distract from your other claims that significant evidence has not supported.

So what can we agree on?
1. The Zimmermann note, either very probably or most definitely, was the last straw in a collection of events that caused the US to go to war.
2. Although the note was the last straw, according to the evidence, Unrestricted Submarine Warfare was a more significant cause than the note for the United States’ entry into the war.
3. Woodrow Wilson’s omission (of the mention of the note in his speech asking Congress for war) was NOT because he worried such mention would compromise intelligence sources (since the note was publicly released and confirmed by its author, there was nothing important to give up that wasn’t already given up)
4. According to the sources, USW would have eventually caused American entry, although probably not as fast as it happened with the note’s release expediting the process.

Your acceptance, rejection with evidence, or admission of inability to accept or reject these points due to lack of supporting or contrary evidence would go a long way to settling the matters gracefully.

Please address them point by point to make future discussion more efficient.

How is it not your argument? You say right there (where I added bold to highlight) that USW was not going to trigger the war! And then when I ask for proof for that claim, a historical source or two stating that war would not have occurred if USW had gone on longer without the note, you try to say you made no claim. Is it perhaps because you don’t have any evidence? (rhetorical question).

If USW could trigger the war, the British would never give up the fact that they broke the code. The facts prove themselves. This is basic reasoning except for you. Why give away an advantage if you dont have too?

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 09, 2013, 10:49:39 pm
I do have the fact that the note triggered US entry, no matter how you want to rearrange the blocks. No matter how many times you want to create and invent new arguments, you will fail.

If by my failing, you mean you ignoring the evidence and saying the same thing over and over again, then I suppose yes, I would be “failing.” You made plenty of claims outside of the note being the last straw. I did not invent those. You did. Chief among those are your statements that the note was more important a cause than USW and that Wilson did not mention the note in his war speech because he was worried he would give an intel source away by mentioning the note (even though the note was published in NEWSPAPERS and confirmed by its AUTHOR as authentic long before the speech!).

Then you have your answer. You fail. My argument is not for the millionth time which was a greater influence, but what was the trigger that caused the war, which is the note. Get over it.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 09, 2013, 10:49:39 pm

Quote
That’s good, you are at least admitting now that at least one of your ideas is a guess and not based on evidence. The telegram helped get public opinion against the Germans but as the actual sources (not guesses and not “common knowledge” have shown it was far from the most significant factor, and USW would have caused american antry with or without the note. What the note did likely do, was speed up the entry. But it’s safe to say at this point that according to the evidence the note was hardly the decisive factor, or you would have found SOMETHING substantial to support that. It’s 1 am, so good night.

Another new argument? LOL. The note was the final straw that triggered the war. Get over it. Now read and learn:

What in my post was a new argument? I already said it sped up entry. I already said it affected public opinion. I already said USW was more decisive. I already said that USW would lead to war, note or not. I suppose it’s new that I mention what time it is, but that’s hardly an argument, unless you would like to contest what time it was when I made the post (given your penchant for distraction, I would not be surprised).

Anything that subverts the truth that the note was the trigger that caused US entry, is de facto another argument that i made no claim about. Some of these arguments are entertaining BTW.

Quote from: Imperious Leader on January 09, 2013, 10:49:39 pm
Quote
Other points influenced entrance to the war, but the Zimmerman Telegram (sometimes called the “Zimmerman note” or “Zimmerman telegraph”) finally pushed the US to war.

I said in post 22 that is was probable that the telegram was the final straw. You keep harping on that one point that was settled pages ago. I suspect it is because you are trying to distract from your other claims that significant evidence has not supported.

Then stop arguing with my point. It is my only point here. Stop inventing other things that you assume are my claims or trying ( and failing ) to get me to answer questions so you can form new arguments from what i posted.

So what can we agree on?
1. The Zimmermann note, either very probably or most definitely, was the last straw in a collection of events that caused the US to go to war. YES
2. Although the note was the last straw, according to the evidence, Unrestricted Submarine Warfare was a more significant cause than the note for the United States’ entry into the war.

Never made any claim about this, this is your claim.

3. Woodrow Wilson’s omission (of the mention of the note in his speech asking Congress for war) was NOT because he worried such mention would compromise intelligence sources (since the note was publicly released and confirmed by its author, there was nothing important to give up that wasn’t already given up)

Never made any claim about this, this is your claim

4. According to the sources, USW would have eventually caused American entry, although probably not as fast as it happened with the note’s release expediting the process.

NO, it that were true they didn’t need the note. Basic reasoning.

Your acceptance, rejection with evidence, or admission of inability to accept or reject these points due to lack of supporting or contrary evidence would go a long way to settling the matters gracefully.

You are really ridiculous and immature.

Please address them point by point to make future discussion more efficient.

Now stop wasting time with continual gibberish.