Scramble vs. Carrier question

You can have a game for fun with players of equal skill level, and still hold everyone accountable for their mistakes.

@Young:

You can have a game for fun with players of equal skill level, and still hold everyone accountable for their mistakes.

Yes, but I usually do not choose to do so.  It depends on who I am playing as well.  For me, having a rules nazi (term appropriate in my mind because we’re talking a game of WWII!) in a game for fun, isn’t fun for me.  That is regardless of if I am a stickler for a rules, or they are.

Again, league/tournament is different.  These are more “professional” games, in my mind.  Everyone should be thoroughly versed in the rules - and if you make a mistake, well, then too bad!

how can you deny a big battle that is just silly. if you are going to rules guru someone like that at least give a heads up before something is resolved.

It is like making an ESL kid spell out the card he is calling with meddling mage after a correct pronunciation, that was a messed up magic tournament, kid’s white weenie deck would have owned illusions of grandeur (if he had spellled the card the deck is named after right). that was jacked up. Judge wouldn’t let him change the card he verbally said to donate either, which he was more confident in his spelling. Plus mtg does not print out all of its rules.

see messed up stuff happens in tournaments too.

All I ask is that players (including myself) don’t make combat movements after they declare that their combat movement phase is done, how is that being a rule Nazi?

@Young:

All I ask is that players (including myself) don’t make combat movements after they declare that their combat movement phase is done, how is that being a rule Nazi?

If they haven’t rolled any dice, what’s the big deal? If you’re in a friendly game and your opponent is about to get 5 trns burned in his attack because he doesn’t realize you can scramble, it’s just being sportsmanlike to say "wait are you SURE you are done with combat move, and then coyly point at the scramblable fighter. If they still don’t get it, then it’s time for a rules lesson.

It’s one thing to warn your opponent that they left their undefended transports in range of your attack; I don’t think that’s necessary unless they are really new, and even then, that player will learn to count range of your units. But, if a player just throws away several loaded transports because of ignorance of a rule, I think it’s rather unconscionable to let them do that in all but the most competitive of games.

Players should be taken to task for moving a unit to far or forgetting to move an AA gun or forgetting to repair an airbase, but it seems that 95+% of the time, if a transport situation like the ones above occurs, it’s not because of laziness or forgetfulness, but because of ignorance of the rules. I’ve been playing axis and allies half my life and it’s sometimes disheartening how confused I get it some situations.

@Cow:

how can you deny a big battle that is just silly. if you are going to rules guru someone like that at least give a heads up before something is resolved.

In either case, I think a large battle should be well thought out ahead of time.  Something silly like forgetting a walkin, that’s completly different.  Hell, I have no problem with players allowing their opponents to revise their CM to take free territories during NCM in their league/tournament games.  I just draw the line there.  For fun?  Sure, it was a free territory, wtf, not like you have any dice for it (or a free transport shot, whatever.)  League/Tournament?  You forgot it, not my fault your admirals/generals can’t follow orders!

I am very forgiving and always point out obvious oversights.
Maybe that is why I will never play a tournament: might just open my big mouth and help my opponent!

Related to the original question, I’m wondering whether it’s allowed to protect transports with planes only during an amphibious attack and without any sea combat. For example, suppose there’s a German amphibious attack on Novgorod from sea zone 115 by unloading transports alone, is it allowed to fly fighters from Germany into sea zone 115 in order to protect the transports from scrambling?
The rules say that accompanying sea units can move with the transports when moving into an uncontested sea zone. Can air units do the same? It would be counter-intuitive if they couldn’t, because in the above example they definitely could if there were, say, a Russian destroyer in sea zone 115, just because it would be combat.

Herr KaLeun: I am sure you can,precisely  so as to prevent such a scramble.

@Herr:

Related to the original question, I’m wondering whether it’s allowed to protect transports with planes only during an amphibious attack and without any sea combat. For example, suppose there’s a German amphibious attack on Novgorod from sea zone 115 by unloading transports alone, is it allowed to fly fighters from Germany into sea zone 115 in order to protect the transports from scrambling?
The rules say that accompanying sea units can move with the transports when moving into an uncontested sea zone. Can air units do the same? It would be counter-intuitive if they couldn’t, because in the above example they definitely could if there were, say, a Russian destroyer in sea zone 115, just because it would be combat.

I am pretty sure I remember krieghund saying you could move planes into a seazone even if there are no enemy units in anticipation of a scramble.

ya, the correct move for this russian player would have been to leave a single fighter behind with his carrier + transports, in order to defend against the possible scramble.

@vonLettowVorbeck1914:

@Young:

All I ask is that players (including myself) don’t make combat movements after they declare that their combat movement phase is done, how is that being a rule Nazi?

If they haven’t rolled any dice, what’s the big deal? If you’re in a friendly game and your opponent is about to get 5 trns burned in his attack because he doesn’t realize you can scramble, it’s just being sportsmanlike to say "wait are you SURE you are done with combat move, and then coyly point at the scramblable fighter. If they still don’t get it, then it’s time for a rules lesson.

I always ask if they are sure their combat movement phase is done, and everyone is given plenty of time during their turn. Our whole group of 6 plays this way, and we have a very friendly gaming experience. Strategic bombing raids are first, if there are none, amphibious assults are next, that’s when a plane can scramble to destroy defenceless transports before any dice are thrown. so in our groups we specify that combat movements are done when you declare that they are done, and not when “dice are rolled”.

I believe in giving leeway every once in a while.  If it becomes a feaking habbit, then I’ll corner him to the wall and make good and darn sure he doesn’t get away with it.  In friendly games.  I mean, what’s the harm in, once, out of 12 game rounds, someone forgets to do a walk in?  Let him have it, you were probably expecting it and expecting to have to counter attack or whatever anyway.

In other words, I’d rather play a game with friends, then alienate a friend over a 1 IPC territory.  Except in league/tournament.  You die then.  And I watch you scream and giggle softly to myself while I do it.

Wittmann, Von Lettow Vorbeck: thanks for the clarification.

@Young:

I always ask if they are sure their combat movement phase is done, and everyone is given plenty of time during their turn. Our whole group of 6 plays this way, and we have a very friendly gaming experience. Strategic bombing raids are first, if there are none, amphibious assults are next, that’s when a plane can scramble to destroy defenceless transports before any dice are thrown. so in our groups we specify that combat movements are done when you declare that they are done, and not when “dice are rolled”.

You missed what I wrote. I asked what the big deal is if they haven’t rolled any dice. I never said that TECHNICALLY they could by the rules go back and change something, but honestly, if no dice have been rolled and you are playing a friendly game, what difference does it really make if a player wants to go back and change something once they happened to say that they are ready for combat.

You missed what I wrote as well, the difference is that it would be possible to reneg on an amphibious assault because a plane was scramble… that’s not fair in my books. It’s upto the attacker to assign enough forces to deal with the land and the sea during an amphibious assault. Besides, sinking loaded transports makes the game go faster.

@Young:

You missed what I wrote as well, the difference is that it would be possible to reneg on an amphibious assault because a plane was scramble… that’s not fair in my books. It’s upto the attacker to assign enough forces to deal with the land and the sea during an amphibious assault. Besides, sinking loaded transports makes the game go faster.

It would always be on a case by case basis.  Scrambling a plane is a bit different than “oh shit, I accidentally spent 1 IPC more than I could, can I downgrade that artillery to an infantry?” or “crap, I was going to blitz N. Ukraine because it was empty, but in all the confusion of hitting your capitol and all the excitement of the plunder, it just slipped my mind - do you mind if I fix that?”  Etc.  (note, probably NOT with a capitol attack, but you get the drift.)

Unacceptable would be “shit, my calculator was wrong, can I bring in another bomber?”  Uhm, screw you!  My calculator is not perfect, but it’s mostly reliable, you should be using MINE!  No, wait, you should be using yours, die you American imperialist PIG DOG!  wink

:lol:

I just typed a lengthy reponse that somehow didn’t post. Rather than recreate it, the tone was as such:

I think it’s fair and generous to allow any changes to my opponent right up until the point where I change the game with an action (like saying “I’m scrambling there”) or anybody changes the game with a roll of the die. I might even give an obnoxious throat-clear with a raised eyebrow if they’re done with their combat move and if they’re doing something where it’s clear to me that they’ve overlooked something vital.

I’ll even include doing NCM on the place units and collect income phase. No problem. It doesn’t change the game. Along those lines, in forum games, if somebody wanted to edit NCM on my turn and I hadn’t shown them any of my moves yet, knock yourself out. FTF is a little trickier. If somebody wants to adjust NCM when they see my purchase or my combat moves… eh, sorry Charlie, you’re gonna have to wear that one.

As such, I’m with YG partially – you can’t go changing the allocations of units once I say I’m scrambling; there’s too much opportunity for abuse and hurt feelings. But I’m also not as firm on things where changing things isn’t impacted nor impacts other things. If nobody else has acted, go for it.

And that’s my third of a half-shilling.