yea but the dice take a long time to roll. Second problem is to gain support for your ideas you got to not step too far outside the box.
I’m not sure that trying to make something different requires you to remain in the box. Many of the A&A games are lacking for the very reason that they kept the box. All of these re-issues and yet many games are still plagued with the same issues they had 20 years ago. ie. the need for bids, unrealistic setups, etc. etc.
Making something totally different might be a nice refreshing change. I don’t think the issue is needing to stay the same as much as it is needing to be very clear in the operation of the new game concept (and game balance goes without saying). Clear rules and usable charts go a long way to help players get a firm grasp and make it playable. The process of attracting people might take longer if the game represents a significant departure, but in many cases it really doesn’t matter. For many, anything other than a sanctioned A&A game is not an option anyway… those people would rather play A&A then a game that offers a different and/or improved experience. So at the end of the day they aren’t your target market anyways. But if people try something different and it works, its following will grow.
Keep going Keodis I’m interested to see what you come up with. Design it as you envision it. It can always be rescaled after the fact.
I’m not sure that trying to make something different requires you to remain in the box. Many of the A&A games are lacking for the very reason that they kept the box. All of these re-issues and yet many games are still plagued with the same issues they had 20 years ago. ie. the need for bids, unrealistic setups, etc. etc.
Making something totally different might be a nice refreshing change. I don’t think the issue is needing to stay the same as much as it is needing to be very clear in the operation of the new game concept (and game balance goes without saying). Clear rules and usable charts go a long way to help players get a firm grasp and make it playable. The process of attracting people might take longer if the game represents a significant departure, but in many cases it really doesn’t matter. For many, anything other than a sanctioned A&A game is not an option anyway… those people would rather play A&A then a game that offers a different and/or improved experience. So at the end of the day they aren’t your target market anyways. But if people try something different and it works, its following will grow.
D20 system will not solve any problems regarding those that plague the OOB games as produced. Those problems are due to lack of long term play-testing and people who make incorrect decisions regarding the History and setups, etc. It can still be different with D6 or D12. D12 seems more natural and D20 seems too drastic. Why not D100?
OK i am having trouble with the north african deployment. In libya the italians had 10 divisions of infantry, 2 of which were mechanized and had some medium tanks. they also had 300 aircraft that were outdated.
in egypt the UK had an under strength infantry division and an under strength armor division. they also had 205 aircraft that were even more outdated than the italians…… how am i going to represent this in A&A.
also France’s deployment is way too huge ( 16 infantry, 6 mech, 3 tanks, 2 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 tactical bomber ). Germany will take extreme losses. im going to have to alter it because many of the troops didnt even fight and were bypassed. idk what percentage to put their army to. 40% percent strength??
OK i am having trouble with the north african deployment. In libya the italians had 10 divisions of infantry, 2 of which were mechanized and had some medium tanks. they also had 300 aircraft that were outdated.
in egypt the UK had an under strength infantry division and an under strength armor division. they also had 205 aircraft that were even more outdated than the italians…… how am i going to represent this in A&A.
Italy would be 2 inf, 1 mech or 1 inf and 1 mech, no fighter.
UK would be 1 Inf, no fighter
What happened is the Italians attacked in late summer and by October had a huge advantage over UK, but instead they just entrenched because they didn’t capitalize on the mechanization of warfare and decided this was a replay of the Great War.
Just get the deployments right and after that tweak strength.
also France’s deployment is way too huge ( 16 infantry, 6 mech, 3 tanks, 2 artillery, 1 fighter, 1 tactical bomber ). Germany will take extreme losses. im going to have to alter it because many of the troops didn’t even fight and were bypassed. idk what percentage to put their army to. 40% percent strength??
This is easier. France had deployed Infantry, etc in her colonies.
Your goal should be first to find all the data and where everything should go, once you do that you begin process of tweaking. You don’t do it at this point. Finish up and post all of these imbalances latter.
OK.
UK Europe: CV’s with no fighters are due to minimal airforce in location or lack of info.
Quebec: inf
SZ 96: AP
SZ 91: CA, CV /w tac
SZ 119: 3 BB, CA, 2 DD
SZ 109: BB, CV /w ftr and tac, 2 CA, 2 DD, SS
Scotland: AAA, inf, ftr
UK: 4 AAA, inf, 2 ftr, 2 tac, bomber
SZ 111: 4 DD
SZ 110: BB, CA, 2 DD, SS
France: (BEF) inf, art, mech
Malta: AAA
SZ 98: BB, CV /w tac, CA, DD
Egypt: inf
Anglo Egyptian Sudan: inf
Union of S Africa: inf
France ( what i know so far )
UK: inf
SZ 105: SS
SZ 93: DD, CA
SZ 92: BB, CA, SS
SZ 99: DD
SZ 110: DD
Morocco: inf
Algeria: inf
Tunisia: inf
French West Africa: inf
Madagascar: inf
Syria: inf
French Indo China: inf
Im done the USA Europe side and very, very close to finishing Italy. The earlier German setup i posted is not historical, it was a guess at what they would of done. It is extremely hard to find info on their deployment. Once im done Italy and Germany and figured out what to do with France, I can start to look at the USSR. Then im going to double check IL’s Pacific setup he posted.
Ill post the other setups tomorrow morning unless i get called into work.
If anyone wants to help, id appreciate them tackling the USSR or double checking IL’s setup and double checking mine as well.
If we can get a bunch of people to “proof read” this setup then we can sort out all mistakes fairly easily. Thx for all the help!
French Indo China: inf
They didn’t have what would be 1 inf in FIC, rather i would place this in FWA.
For the Soviets they deployed alot of her forces on the border with some getting ready for attacking Finland and reserve in Moscow and Kiev. The far eastern force should be a mechanized force with tanks, art and at least one fighter. a few infantry too.
I cant remember what my extrapolation was for that, but it was more or less this:
4-5 inf
2-3 Mech
2 Tanks
2 Art
1 Fighter
1 AAA
1 SS
1 AP
1 Port ( Vladivostok)
thx IL for the info.
are you saying there should be 2 inf in FWA?
USA europe Note: lack of AAA guns in my setups are due to no info on them but i know there were AAA guns
Central: tank, mech, art, tac, bomber
Eastern: 2 inf, ftr
SZ101: BB, CV w/ tac n ftr, CA, DD, SS, AP
Italy:
North: 6 inf, tank, art
South: 4 inf, mech, 2 bombers
Sardinia: inf, tac
Sicily: inf, ftr
Tobruk: inf, mech
Albania: inf
Ethiopia: 2 inf, art
Italian somali: inf
SZ 96: DD, SS, AP
SZ 95: BB, CA, DD, SS, AP
SZ 97: BB, CA, DD, SS
Germany invaded Poland with:
61 divisions of infantry
9000 artillery guns
2750 tanks
2315 aircraft
Germany invaded France with:
141 divisions of infantry
7300 guns
2500 tanks
5600 aircraft
just with those divisions alone, Germany has 40.4 inf on the board !! thats way more than 26 in the setup that was posted.
Panzer divisions had around 300 tanks in them. so 1 tank piece would be ~600 tanks. But how many guns equal an artillery piece? keep in mind the total # of guns were not used together, inf divisions and tank division used many of the guns. Would assuming half the guns are used elsewhere, and saying 600 guns ( like the tanks ) would represent 1 piece would mean that 7300 guns represent 6 artillery.
EDIT: Just realized that maybe some of the divisions of infantry were part of panzer and artillery divisions. I think im wrong and they actually mean 141 divisions of standard infantry
are you saying there should be 2 inf in FWA?
Oh in that case Perhaps one inf in FEA, but not 2 in FWA
Germany invaded France with:
141 divisions of infantry
7300 guns
2500 tanks
5600 aircraft
This is not correct. Tanks are correct (probably 2300 actually). Aircraft is more like 2800, Infantry is more like 97.
I will check and come back
http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/Germany/German-Orders-of-Battle-June-1940.htm
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/40-05-10_army/_okh.html ( on this site count all the XX divisions from each category)
Don’t use Wikipedia for anything factual. It is a guideline or quick reference and by no means accurate ( for the most part)
The totals for the ENTIRE German army: ( deployed in the east, Norway, Denmark, and elsewhere in Germany)
By May 1940, the number of divisions in the German army was as follows:
129 infantry divisions;
8 motorised infantry divisions (3 Waffen-SS);
10 panzer divisions;
3 mountain divisions;
1 cavalry division;
2 airborne divisions;
i went to http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orders-of-Battle/Germany/German-Orders-of-Battle-June-1940.htm many times but never actually examined it.
if this is the total that means every single tank division Germany had was going into france?
By May 1940, the number of divisions in the German army was as follows:
129 infantry divisions;
8 motorised infantry divisions (3 Waffen-SS);
10 panzer divisions; <–---------- 10 panzer divisions
3 mountain divisions;
1 cavalry division;
2 airborne divisions;
For the invasion of France the German Army was organised into three army groups:
Army Group A (von Rundstedt) with 45 1/2 divisions including 7 panzer;
Army Group B (von Bock) with 29 1/2 divisions including 3 panzer, and <----------- 10 panzer divisions
Army Group C (von Leeb) with 19 divisions.
about the picture on ww2total, is that all of army group A and B going through the ardennes from what would be Holland/Belgium on the Axis and allies map??
also according to stats on ww2total, i should take a BB out of SZ 95 and change their air deployment to:
North italy: 1 bomber, 1 ftr
South Italy: 1 tac
if this is the total that means every single tank division Germany had was going into France?
NO it is the entire GERMAN ARMY deployed all over controlled areas ( Germany as reserve , Norway, Denmark, Poland, etc.). From that about 80-90 total divisions went to France. Count the divisions in the order of battle from here:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/40-05-10_army/_okh.html ( count XX only, you don’t need to deal with regiments)
@Imperious:
if this is the total that means every single tank division Germany had was going into France?
NO it is the entire GERMAN ARMY deployed all over controlled areas ( Germany as reserve , Norway, Denmark, Poland, etc.). From that about 80-90 total divisions went to France. Count the divisions in the order of battle from here:
http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany/40-05-10_army/_okh.html ( count XX only, you don’t need to deal with regiments)
no i know this is the total deployment. what i was pointing out is this. ON the total deployment list they have 10 panzer divisions. On the list for the battle of france, germany had 7 panzer divisions in army group A and 3 in army group B.
so if they totalled 10 divisions and attacked with 10. that means they used all theyre tanks in france, no?
also the niehorster.orbat website i think i counted 8 divisions of tanks. That website is making my brain melt
In some cases they used most or all of their strength ( panzer) But infantry figures from earlier post is way off. If 10 is the figure then that’s 5 tanks ( ratio is 2:1 for this) however Germany had the best armor units at this time, so you might have to alter ratio for them to 1:1.5
The site that makes you sick is the more accurate site BTW.
i dont wanna change the ratios because the units on the board represent size, not quality. The changes in dice #'s on a D12 or D20 can reflect the quality.
Just cant read the other site lmao
Very good point Keodis
Does anyone even have a rough outline of a nation by nation D-12 combat values chart?
IL made one long time ago. i posted it here. check page 3 or 4
