If you could choose any TWO new unit sculpts, what would they be?

So guys, this Thread might get a bit convoluted, but I just wanted to inform whoever is reading this that I will do more test and maybe adjust the setup one final time… Since what bothers me so far is the unusual high number of Infantry in India that has to counter the unusual high number of Japanese transports. :D

I might do something that will reduce both the number of Infantry in India but also the amount transports (and maybe fighters) that Japan starts with. Because of this, Japan can expand in the East at will and because of all the fighters, it can both attack and defend wherever it wants to.

So stay tuned! I might create a new thread once all this tests and considerations come to a close for a final setup!

@general-6-stars Yes, I would like to see that.

Here is 5 of n for discussion of my Classic House Rules

Here are my rules for developing weapons technology in the Milton Bradley edition of A&A. These rules are optional. My rules have two ways of developing weapons - random research and directed research.

Random Research

Random research works mostly the same as regular rules - buy dice at 5 IPCs per die, roll purchased dice, if you roll a 6, you managed to stumble onto a new technology. If using the technology chart in my Post 6 (New Research Tech for Classic), rules will be provided in that post. If using the standard Milton Bradley technology chart, follow the rules in the “New Ways to Get the Same Old Technology” section below. Technology gained from random research takes effect at the end of the player’s turn.

Directed Research

Directed Research is for those who want to know when they will get their hands on these technological terrors they’ve been spending money on. On a player’s turn, they can choose to roll randomly for research or they can make a directed research attempt (DRA). A country can have a maximum of two DRAs at any one time.

To make a directed research attempt, select the technology desired. If using the revised technology chart, rules will be provided in my Post 6. If using the standard Milton Bradley technology chart, follow the rules in the “New Ways to Get the Same Old Technology” section below. Once an available technology has been selected, the player then pays 10 IPCs to the bank and rolls a d6. On a roll of 1 or 2, the player needs one more turn; a roll of 3 or 4, two more turns; a roll of 5 or 6, three more turns to finish the research.

Each subsequent turn, the player has the option of paying 5 IPCs to advance the research. On the turn that a player makes their final payment, the technology takes effect at the end of that turn. On the player’s next turn, they may start another DRA.

Directed research attempts also have the following restrictions: not more than two DRAs on-going at any one time, can only start one at a time, must wait a turn to start another one if they have two at the same time at the start of their turn.

If the player does not pay on their turn, their only penalty is having to wait yet another turn for their research (no penalty for “missed” payments).

Using this system, a player can get any one technology in 2 to 4 turns for a cost of 15 to 25 IPCs.

Combining Random and Directed Research

If a player is doing directed research and then decides to roll randomly, this is allowed. If the player randomly researches the same technology that was being developed with directed research, the player recieves the technology rolled for just as if the player had never started any research on that technology. The player will receive no refund on any previously-spent research funds and may not redirect the previously-spent directed research funds to another research project - research is over. This doubly researched technology will be available at the end of the player’s turn.

The only restriction on random and directed research is that a player may not undertake two directed research projects and then conduct random research. Combining one directed research project and random research is allowed.

New Ways to Get the Same Old Technology

While my rules include a revised technology chart, these rules work with the standard Milton Bradley technology chart with one proviso - if your game has the standard technology chart and directed research, research into Heavy Bombers should be denied until after successfully researching both Long Range Aircraft and either Jets or Rockets. Research into the two of three technologies could be in any order and could be done with random or directed research.

When rolling for the random result of a successful random research attempt, if the player rolls a 6 (Heavy Bombers) and is not yet eligible to research Heavy Bombers, the player will re-roll. If the re-roll is also a 6, the player may choose any remaining available unresearched technology for the player’s result.

-Midnight_Reaper

@Dauvio:

@Baron:

@SS:

Ya I like it too.
2 inf = A2 A25.0% total
1 inf+1 art = A4 A50% total makes up the drop for sure.
Cost ya 7 instead 6 icps.

Do you know how many Art are bought in a game on average for China ?

I hope it will be at least Arty A3 D2, so chinese Inf will get A2+A3 for 5/8 or 62.5% which is nearer the OOB 4/6 (66.7%) combined arms.

This little case also shows that China might be better with a strong Arty A3 D3 because defense 5/8 (62.5%) will be nearer OOB 66.7% for Art+Inf.
Otherwise, 50% 4/8 combined defense is a whole D6 pip below OOB 66.7%

China need something because japanese Fighter and TcB keeps their usual OOB 50% attack per unit.

Interesting idea about Chinese Inf at cost 2.
Mostly the case with AA50.

Baron Munchhausen have been using the ENIGMA (vann) FORMULAS on these proposals???

Hi Vann,
I made up a straighter version of Enigma formula based on the odds of making a hit instead of using the number on dice.

So, you can change the values but still can compare if you immediately use the odds as input to the formula.
It allows to compare within any dice system and a same unit with different cost or odds.

Here is below the post with YG roster and variants still discussed:

@Baron:

YG’s complete D8s roster

Here is the comparative with Enigma formula (still using a 12 IPCs unit reference) based on odds, not dice number.
144*Odds/cost^2 = strength of unit on same odds by hit per IPCs basis.

I bolded the greatest number between D8 or D6 for same unit.
When there is no difference, I did nothing.
So, you can see at glance which is boosted or nerfed compared to OOB.

Unit type  Combat value  (D8 system) (D6 OOB)
Infantry       A1-2 D2    (2.00-** / 4.00)         (2.67-3.92 / 5.33)
Inf A2+Arty A2 D2         2.94**  /  2.94         (3.92 / 3.92)
Inf A2+Arty A3 D2         3.67**  /  2.94         Same as above
Inf A2+Arty A3 D3         3.67**  /  3.67         Same as above

MechInfantry A1-2 D2  (1.125-** / 2.25)       (1.50-3.00 / 3.00)
MechInf A2+Art A2 D2  (2.25** / 2.25) vs       (3.00 / 3.00)
MechInf A2+Art A3 D2  (2.81** / 2.25) vs        Same as above
MechInf A2+Art A3 D3  (2.81** / 2.81) vs        Same as above

Artillery   A2 D2       (2.25 / 2.25)                  (3.00 / 3.00)
Artillery    A3 D2       (3.375 / 2.25)               Same as above
Artillery    A3 D3       (3.375 / 3.375)             Same as above

Tank         A4 D4            (2.00 / 2.00)            (2.00 / 2.00)

Anti-Air A  A0 D1* (0.00 / 0.72 per plane)       (0.00 / 0.96 per plane)

Fighter      A4 D5    (0.72 / 0.90 )              (0.72 / 0.96)

TcBomber  A4-5 D4 (0.595-** / 0.595)       (0.595 / 0.595)

TcB A5+Tank C17    (1.12** / 1.00)         (1.16 / 1.00)
TcB A5+Fighter C21 (0.735** / 0.653)     (0.761 / 0.653)
StBomber  A5 D1    (0.625 / 0.125)         (0.667 / 0.167)

Submarine  A2 D1 (1.00, fs: 1.50 / 0.50 fs: 0.67)   (1.33, fs: 2.00 / 0.67 fs: 0.89)
Submarine  A3 D2 (1.50, fs: 2.25 / 1.00 fs: 1.33)   (1.33, fs: 2.00 / 0.67 fs: 0.89)
Destroyer    A2 D2 (0.563 / 0.563)                        (0.75 / 0.75)
Destroyer    A3 D3 (0.844 / 0.844)                        (0.75 / 0.75)
Cruiser        A5 D5  (0.625 / 0.625)                       (0.50 / 0.50)
Carrier, 2 hits A0 D2 (0.0 / 0.368)                            (0.00 / 0.491)
Carrier, 2 hits A0 D3 (0.0 / 0.552)                          As above
Battleship    A6 D6   (0.707 / 0.707)                      (0.628 / 0.628)

Good points guys - this is why I like to post ideas here. You’ve convinced me this idea won’t really work. Thanks for the input!

My mind evolved on this topic when I add my 2 cents into G40 Redesign thread.
Below are the main post which marks how things on lowering Sub A3 D1 C6 to A2fs D1 C5 and DD C6.
@Baron:

Thanks LHoffman for all the questions and commentaries. I would like to give answers to all but don’t have much time.
I will still adress at least a few for now.

@LHoffman:

Hide your kids, hide your wives, tanks are gonna destroy everything out there. :-D :-D :-D
See my related comment under Tac Bomber below…

@Baron:

SUBMARINES A2 First Strike D1 M2 Cost 6
Cannot hit or be hit by other submarines,

Any reason for no sub vs sub combat?

Yes. I don’t want that Submarine be considered as sea-fodder. Also, it needs a little boost on offense (to keep balance vs Destroyer) because it is the only unit which isn’t at lower cost. Now, Subs directly aim surface vessels only. That emphasized the screening and fodder function of Destroyers. If you invest a lot in Submarines, your own surface fleet will be vulnerable against your opponent’s Subs. That wasn’t the case OOB. Large fleet confrontation showed Submarine’s destruction festival. To bypass Subs in a gamey way OOB, you must forget to bring Destroyers, so aircrafts can directly hit enemy’s surface vessels while Submarines on defense (using first strike @1) can still be used as casualty to screen against attacking Submarines (even with first strike @2).
Hope I’m enough clear so you can see the issue.
In addition, I believe it is historically a rare event that a sub sink a sub. Almost the same kind of oddity as Submarine taking down a Fighter with their AA fire.

@Baron:

DESTROYER A2 D2 M2 Cost 6

Nice and cheap.
I read that Destroyers (and Destroyer Escort) were built in very large number amongst all navies.

@Baron:

TRANSPORT A0 D1 Last Strike M2 Cost 8, 1 hit

Must be escorted by a warship when making an amphibious assault in an enemy’s Submarines infested SZ or Transports infested SZ, so to be able to ignore them/ or fight them with combat units.
Otherwise, Submarines and Transports may be ignored during Transport Combat Move or Non Combat Move.

Why so expensive? Most everything else got a cost decrease but transports got increased.

It was a matter of balance compared to the defenseless transports taken last. Using such 1 hit Transport as desperate fodder in needy times can provides a few additionnal hits with larger and costlier warships. That wasn’t the case OOB. So at a matching cost with Fighter at 8 IPCs (OOB worth 10 IPCs), was about the way to statistically get a similar results compared to OOB defenseless transports escorted with Destroyers.

I add this post to provide a link to where my idea on Submarine and Destroyer evolved into.
@Baron:

Cost and units values is a complex matter.
If cost scale is mainly based upon a consistent  OOB ratio amongst units, my previous scale can be increase near OOB too. (Something I just realized.)
Here is 2 comparative scales which can works with my units roster given above.

Unit type   1st scale  Near  OOB scale
Submarine    6             8 IPCs permanent A2 first strike against all surface vessels, including DDs
Destroyer      6             8 IPCs blocks Submerge and Stealth move on a 1:1 basis.
Transport      8             10 IPCS, 1 hit, Last Strike @1, no Taken Last casualty rule
Cruiser          9             12 IPCs with one time AAA capacity
Carrier           12           16 IPCs
Battleship     15           20 IPCs with one time AAA capacity

Fighter           8             10 IPCS
Tactical B.    10            12 IPCS A4D3 with +1 A/D combined arms to Tank
Strategic B.   10           12 IPCs
All aircrafts can hit Submarines without Destroyer presence.

Chosing the appropriate scale is an important issue.
I can only add on this matter that I believe that a lower scale than OOB would accelarate the Allies ticking time bomb because a lot depends on USA warships building pace.

Near OOB cost could be easier to get acceptance.
However, introducing direct hits between planes might produces a lot more losses amongst original set -up units. More  money (from NOs or anything else ) could be needed to keep up with OOB rythm of losses.

@Baron:

@Black_Elk:

I’ll admit to being somewhat torn. On the one hand I think Baron’s unit interactions are excellent and very well thought out, and I also recall the development process over time in countless threads, so I’ve seen how its grown into a pretty complete overhaul. But I also know that people may be reluctant to adopt a series of sweeping changes to the roster. For those who want the familiar OOB combat system just with a different “campaign” dynamic (different NOs, incomes or starting unit distributions) a complete redux of the combat phase might put them off, since it requires you to learn a lot of new things.

I would say that threshold here for me is whether or not the unit interactions can be easily handled in tripleA, without requiring a bunch of new code, or the introduction of new phases and the like.

I’m not a huge fan of combined arms. I know in the OOB game this is a huge part of what makes TacBs useful, but I rather prefer it when each unit has a unique stand alone role, without being reliant on other units to be effective. Artillery set the precedent though, so I suppose its here to stay now, I’d just be careful not to run away with the concept. I think the combat phase becomes a lot less intuitive when the unit attack/defense values change based upon which other units are in the fight. The TacB is rather different than artillery, because it is itself boosted by other units, rather than providing the boost. Artillery has a baseline attack value of 2 that doesn’t change based on which other units are in the fight, which I think is a bit simpler to grasp. I suppose by now everyone is used to the combined arms that currently exist, but adding a bunch of new specialized unit relationships might be off putting to some. Again though, I’m willing to explore at this point. A ground up roster revision is very ambitious.

IDK which direction you will take but I dislike combined arms (except for Art and Inf or MI) too.
Changing the combat value of units during combat is annoying and slowing the pace on A&A boardgame. I know you are looking for simplicity. Hence few revised units, such as Subs, TPs, DDs.
I knew it was bit overstretched.

For Submarines and Destroyers, I cut down the Surprise Strike and blocker because most of the time there is enough DDs to neutralized this special ability. Making both at the same cost would have put a balanced Sub at A3 D1 vs DD at A2 D2. Keeping it at a lower but constant A2 first strike keeps the symbolic surprise attack (figurating the sneaky torpedoes) while putting Subs as a better offensive warship than Destroyer. On the other hand, I simplified the Sub defense value to a regular and constant D1. Anyway, most of the time, it was the usual Sub defense OOB since DD is always present to block Subs escape.

So, when Sub is part of a fight it keeps the same value from the start till the end. Simpler.
Since this Sub is weaker than OOB Sub vs Destroyers, I add Sub cannot hit Sub (for offense while making it a less interesting fodder) and gives it a better survivability with DD blocking Submerge and Stealth only on 1:1 ratio which make sense at the same cost.
At least, when a Submarine will be on offense, the A2 first strike promise to be more satisfying than OOB.

On TcB and StB, making them the same cost with same attack value A4 is going to put players on a difficult dilemma: better range and mobility or better overall unit in defense. Buying TcBs A4 D3 M4 instead of StBs A4 D1 M6 will reduced the effectiveness of Dark Sky which rely a lot on higher mobility.

@Baron:

@The:

Since Sub always have First Strike I thought only undetected subs have the first strike option (@2 in attack & @1 while defending) while detected subs fire along with all other vessels. At least this is the way we handle this in our games

OOB, you are right Sub cost 6, A2 D1 and gets Surprise Strike if no DD is present.

In my redesign Sub suggestion, DD cost 6 and block 1:1 Sub’s Submerge and Stealth Move, but can’t affect the Sub’s Surprise Strike (at 5 IPCs vs 6 IPCs, A2 first strike vs D2, the IPC ratio already put DD at the same OOB AACalc odds of 6 IPCs vs 8 IPCs, A2 vs D2)

OOB odds: 88% vs 11%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=8&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=6&dCru=&dCar=&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

Redesign odds: 88% vs 12%
http://calc.axisandallies.org/?mustland=0&abortratio=0&saveunits=0&strafeunits=0&aInf=&aArt=&aArm=&aFig=&aBom=&aTra=&aSub=6&aDes=&aCru=&aCar=&aBat=&adBat=&dInf=&dArt=&dArm=&dFig=&dBom=&dTra=&dSub=&dDes=&dCru=&dCar=5&dBat=&ddBat=&ool_att=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Sub-SSub-Des-Fig-JFig-Cru-Bom-HBom-Car-dBat-Tra&ool_def=Bat-Inf-Art-AArt-Arm-Bom-HBom-Sub-SSub-Des-Car-Cru-Fig-JFig-dBat-Tra&battle=Run&rounds=&reps=10000&luck=pure&ruleset=AA1942&territory=&round=1&pbem=

Simpler to let Sub, cost 5, attack A2 First strike all the time, but defend @1 regular.
Anyway, you would need Destroyer as fodder and to attack Sub, because they can Submerge, if their is no DD.

@Baron:

Unit type
Cost  Combat values
Special abilities

SUBMARINE
5 IPCs A2fs* D1 M2
Permanent A2 first strike *against all surface vessels only, including DDs.
Cannot hit Sub or Aircraft
Submerge and Stealth Move

DESTROYER
6 IPCs A2 D2 M2
Block Sub’s Submerge (first round only) and Stealth move, both on a 1:1 basis.

TRANSPORT
8 IPCs A0 D0 M2, 1 hit,
Carry 2 units, 1 Inf + 1 any ground unit
No defense against warships,
1 Transport can escape from Naval Battle in the same SZ at each end of combat round, if there is no enemy’s aircraft. Simply remove TP from battle board and place it in the SZ on the map.
Regular AA @1 against up to 1 plane, whichever the lesser.

Undecided: Submarine’s Stealth Move and No Control of Sea Zone still afford 1 single shot @1 per Submarine unit against any warships or transports passing by in the same SZ.

This is one possible result once added into lower cost structure.
@Baron:

This is the reduced cost structure with near OOB cost for planes and Carrier holding 2 planes (Fgs or TcBs).
I also stick to this cost structure (5-6-9-12-15).
I put the 1 hit Transport at 8 IPCs.
I write here many ideas which still fit into core roster at this low cost.
All other ground units are as OOB, except for Tank which no longer gives attack bonus to TacB.

Feel free to quote, erase the quotation and my name, then change the units according to your idea.
This can be a tool to provide a full view of everyone roster.

Unit type  
Cost   Combat values
Special abilities

SUBMARINE
5  IPCs A2fs* D1 M2
Permanent A2 first strike *against all surface vessels only, including DDs.
Cannot hit Sub or Aircraft
Submerge and Stealth Move
On offense, Sub’s commander can allocate each hit whether on transports group or warships group, the owner still choose which individual unit is the casualty.

On defense, Stealth Move allows (but not compel to) each Sub 1 single roll@1 against any ships passing through the Sub’s SZ. Only each Destroyer can get a single retaliate roll @2.

DESTROYER
6  IPCs A2 D2 M2
Block Sub’s Submerge (first round only) and Stealth move, both on a 1:1 basis.

TRANSPORT
8  IPCs A0 regAA1 D0 M2, 1 hit, taken as casualty according to owner’s choice.
Carry 2 units, 1 Inf + 1 any ground unit
No defense against warships,
1 Transport can escape from Naval Battle in the same SZ at each end of combat round, if there is no enemy’s aircraft. Simply remove TP from battle board and place it in the SZ on the map.
Regular AA @1 against up to 1 plane, whichever the lesser.
Can unload in a Sub infested SZ if escorted by surface warships.

If you bring them in with attackers - as you would for amphibious - then any defense shots in excess of what is needed to sink the accompany ships MUST be applied to any transports until all shots are accounted for or there are no units left to assign them to. (Per OOB rule.)

CRUISER
9 IPCs  A3 D3 M3
Shore Bombard 3
Gives +1 move to 1 surface vessel, paired 1:1

FLEET CARRIER
12  IPCs A0 D2 M2, 2 hits,
Carry 2 planes,
damaged Carrier still carry one aircraft.

BATTLESHIP
15  IPCs A4 D4 M2, 2 hits,
Shore Bombard 4

Both repair at purchase and repair phase in a SZ adjacent to a Naval Base SZ, or in NB SZ.
Naval Base cannot repair more than 3 warships hits per turn.

FIGHTER
10 IPCs A3 D4 M4
SBR: A2 D2, interceptors always destroy bombers first.

TACTICAL BOMBER
12 IPCs A4 D3 M4
TBR: A1first strike,  Damage D6 on AB or NB,
SBR: can do escort mission for StBs without bombing AB or NB.

STRATEGIC BOMBER
12 IPCs  A4 D1 M6
SBR:  AA A1first strike up to two Fighters, whichever the lesser,
Damage on IC, AB, NB D6+2 /minimum damage 2 pts if hit by IC’s/AB or NB’s AA gun.
No damage when destroyed by intercepting Fighters.

All aircrafts can hit unsubmerged Submarines without Destroyer presence.

ANTI-AIRCRAFT ARTILLERY
4 IPCs A0 D1 AAx2* M1 CM or NCM, 1 hit,
Taken as last casualty on offence.
*Fire each round @1 first strike against up to two aircrafts, which ever the lesser.
Regular defense @1 if there is no enemy’s plane.

How about… everyone gets ALL tech all the time?

OR, everyoen gets a random tech at game start?

I’m a big fan of minor axis allies and felt the same rules could be applied to allies also.

I see UK w/ Canada and Union of S Africa as minor allies
I see FEC w/ Anzac and DEI as minor allies
I see USA w/ Brazil as a minor ally

I am going to give this a try next time we play.