Indian Fleet Alternatives

@adaptation:

So they are not part of combat at all - like in AA50?. I guess my OG Axis and Allies habits made me bypass these rules.

And on AA50 transports are defenseless too and are the last casualties to be removed… it was when that rule was introduced ;)

@miamiumike:

During the first two plays, it seemed obvious that UK should throw everything at the fleet off E. Indies - it is about a 60% win chance. However, both games ended in Allied losses - so I am left to wonder, maybe that isn’t the best use of the fleet after all.

The problem is that if it goes as expected, you might have one plane left - no ships to protect whatever transports you have out there. Maybe not a huge problem. If the battle goes against you though (as it did in one game), I think UK is in a lot of trouble.

What is difficult is making that first purchase for UK in India. If I knew my attack would work, buying a carrier and dd would make sense. You can land your surviving fighter on it, and if you position the Russian fighter, you can land it too - at least for one turn. Then, on turn 2, you could add to that fleet - I don’t think Japan could get through a 5-6 unit fleet AND have enough to take India as well? I do not have the numbers in front of me…

MM

That was extreme unluck. The calculator says 62,1% chance of winning for the UK. 32,7% for Japan. So UK should win 2 out of 3 times. So that should be solid choice.
The only other way is to run away with the UK fleet, or to merge it at SZ30, but still, Japan gets to strong, and they knock out everything in China on J1, can’t allow that wall to die there right away, and India will be massively under pressure. So I feel that E-Indies fleet has to go. UK also have an option on taking Borneo with 4 IPC while we are at it, but India loses 2 INF then.

@Mallery29:

If your UK FTR survives, send it to India…don’t buy a fleet that is destined to die.  Some combo of inf/art/tank/FTR in India is a great investment on UK1 and 2.  With reinforcements from Burma, Aus, Persia and possibly Syria depending on the Egypt conundrum, your UK1/2 buys should stack India (US FTR, possibly FTR from UK, UK bomber in Caucus for flex attacks East or West).  Japan will have a hard time competing with a Indian builds while trying to face the US fleet.

Have your Allies gone KJF or KGF?  If you can kill the 2FTR at E.Indies (even if your fleet is wiped out), the odds of saving India greatly increase.  You can instantly stalemate India, and begin saving cash on UK1/2/3 for fleet drop on UK3/4 in Atlantic.

I like the Med path too, would like to know how that goes for UK and the allies.

In theory at least, by saving Egypt with Russian FTR, puts pressure on Germany on Libya. Germany would have to have 6 units there or 4 units + 2 FTR in order to be safe from a counter attack from UK which can bring in 1 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 1 Bomber, 2 FTRs. And then re-inforce Egypt with 1 INF from Syria + 1 INF from Iran which a Transport from India can bring over to Egypt right away.

You said you would take out U.S ships on G1. That also allows UK to dump 1 Tank in Morocco on UK1.

You said you would take out U.S ships on G1. That also allows UK to dump 1 Tank in Morocco on UK1.

a 3 vs 2?  I’ll take those odds…plus I get to sack the UK trans? cool.  Better than US dropping 4 guys in Morocco (I’d still get to sack the transports though…which is cool too.)

Axis don’t need Africa to win (it helps only if you don’t have to waste resources…that’s what Russian lands are for.

@Mallery29:

You said you would take out U.S ships on G1. That also allows UK to dump 1 Tank in Morocco on UK1.

a 3 vs 2? � I’ll take those odds…plus I get to sack the UK trans? cool. � Better than US dropping 4 guys in Morocco (I’d still get to sack the transports though…which is cool too.)

Axis don’t need Africa to win (it helps only if you don’t have to waste resources…that’s what Russian lands are for.

You said yourself that a UK DD can’t do much alone so why not use that Transport for something + UK DD can attack German Subs outside Eastern U.S. So UK DD does something, it can attack + UK Transport does something also, taking or attacking Morocco if you didn’t move your 1 German INF from there.  
Another option is to attack Norway if Germany has moved those 2 INF towards Finland. If not, then good for Russia.

why would you cripple Indian defenses to save Egypt?  You have to make up your mind on that…either Egypt gets the D, or India does, you can’t have it both ways.  By attacking Libya you:
1. Open yourself to Sealion
2. Open yourself to the India crush.

one of those scenarios is bad…having both happen is game over.  Go after Libya and you will set yourself back.  It’s good thinking, but I think Libya/Africa doesn’t have to be so much of a priority now with India having the IC from the start…on 42.1, yeah, Africa was important for the Allies…but the Pacific has so greatly changed that I think this is more balanced than 42.1, which is cool…but we’ll continue to see how that “balance” plays out over time…I just expect to see a hell of a lot more KJF.

You should use the DD to take down the remaing SS off of EUS (although my last game US won outright in the 2SS vs DD…that hurt me…lots of bad rolls for the Axis in that game).  The trans I would save…going for Norway will be a short lived negative investment for the UK…better to save the trans for later when you can drop a UK fleet.  Your forces will get killed in Norway, lose the transport, and will have not saved Russia from anything.

@Mallery29:

why would you cripple Indian defenses to save Egypt? � You have to make up your mind on that…either Egypt gets the D, or India does, you can’t have it both ways. � By attacking Libya you:
1. Open yourself to Sealion
2. Open yourself to the India crush.

one of those scenarios is bad…having both happen is game over. � Go after Libya and you will set yourself back. � It’s good thinking, but I think Libya/Africa doesn’t have to be so much of a priority now with India having the IC from the start…on 42.1, yeah, Africa was important for the Allies…but the Pacific has so greatly changed that I think this is more balanced than 42.1, which is cool…but we’ll continue to see how that “balance” plays out over time…I just expect to see a hell of a lot more KJF.

I don’t disagree, I like much more saving Egypt so that UK can reinforce India and destroy the E-Indies fleet of course. Now we are just discussing about Med-option, what can be done there. I would not take any units from India, just Iran INF + Syria to support Egypt.

I know this is radical, but imagine this. German player knows he can’t take Egypt on G1, since Russian FTR is there. Ok, so the German player puts German FTRs, where, most probably 50/50 Ukraine and France or most of it on France. Not many go to Libya anyway.

Now imagine this, UK player suddently pops up a UK IC on Egypt, lol, that would be fun:) + bying 2 Armor, 1 Art for India = 31 IPC. UK can have 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 2 FTR defending that IC.  Would be fun to test that, but it only works if German player doesn’t know you plan something like this.

Now imagine this, UK player suddently pops up a UK IC on Egypt, lol, that would be fun:) + bying 2 Armor, 1 Art for India = 31 IPC. UK can have 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 2 FTR defending that IC. � Would be fun to test that, but it only works if German player doesn’t know you plan something like this.

–----------------

Actually 3 FTR, forgot the Russian FTR. So 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 3 FTR defending a possible UK IC. It is very difficult for Germany to position enough forces that can prevent a UK IC on Egypt. This is actually the only way for UK to produce units without having to save cash for several rounds. UK can on UK2 buy 2 Armor on Egypt so it’s a brutal force right there.

@AxisBrutality:

Now imagine this, UK player suddently pops up a UK IC on Egypt, lol, that would be fun:) + bying 2 Armor, 1 Art for India = 31 IPC. UK can have 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 2 FTR defending that IC. ��� Would be fun to test that, but it only works if German player doesn’t know you plan something like this.

Actually 3 FTR, forgot the Russian FTR. So 3 INF, 1 Art, 1 Tank, 3 FTR defending a possible UK IC. It is very difficult for Germany to position enough forces that can prevent a UK IC on Egypt. This is actually the only way for UK to produce units without having to save cash for several rounds. UK can on UK2 buy 2 Armor on Egypt so it’s a brutal force right there.

Send the India fleet to the Med and try it out….your best way to protect the investment would be that move.  I’d probably just go inf/art/tank in India to save the 3 if you went that route (and take New Guinea as well).  This way UK2 you can drop 2tanks in Egypt, inf/art/tank India, FTR UK.  Just have the US put lots of pressure on Japan to prevent your ICs from getting backdoored.  UK2 I’d have the UK FTRs and Egypt FTRs go back to India to prevent an Indian crush…this could lead to Japan taking Egypt…I’d try it once, but the more I think about this…it’s scary for both sides.

As much as I would like an alternative, I really don’t see one. To me it seems that leaving the south IJN alive can lead to a resemblance of the ole godzilla Japan. From the looks of it, one good take the three China territories and  Burma. The IJN is consolidated in SZ61 for a possible J2 India push.

@ICinBrazil:

The IJN is consolidated in SZ61 for a possible J2 India push.

Oh no the J3IC rears its ugly head again. Only, this time it’s the J2IP!

Send the India fleet to the Med and try it out….your best way to protect the investment would be that move. � I’d probably just go inf/art/tank in India to save the 3 if you went that route (and take New Guinea as well). � This way UK2 you can drop 2tanks in Egypt, inf/art/tank India, FTR UK. � Just have the US put lots of pressure on Japan to prevent your ICs from getting backdoored.  UK2 I’d have the UK FTRs and Egypt FTRs go back to India to prevent an Indian crush…this could lead to Japan taking Egypt…I’d try it once, but the more I think about this…it’s scary for both sides.

Yes, I’ll try it out this weekend. Fleet to Med is good suggestion and with IC on Egypt, that will give Germany some nightmare scenarios. It’s a good build-up suggestion too. I was thinking of 5 tanks - 2 on Egypt and 3 on India on UK2, but I can try also what you suggested. FTRs can always fly to India to protect India before J2, so I can’t see Japan taking India on J2 anyway. By UK3, all Germans in Northern Africa will be dead unless Germany wants to fight there and that means less pressure on Russia.  The faster I can clear Northern Africa of Germany, the faster can India be re-inforced with units from Egypt. Those 2 FTR from London could also land on India or Egypt on UK2, and I could move 2-3 FTR from Egypt to India, so they kind of trade off. There is an alternative route 2 UK FTR can fly, if not Archangel then West Africa.

I would love to put pressure with the U.S. on Japan in this scenario since Japan is more “free” since we are focusing on Med-strategy here. Then Alaska IC seems tempting, only 2 spaces from Japan. I would not need Alaska IC if we go our regular “take out E-Indies and build tanks on India strategy” which is great strategy, but if we go Med-strategy, then I think Alaska pressure on Japan would be good, since Japan can not take India on J2, and at the same time, Japan would have to worry about 2 battleships or something being placed on Alaska on US2, which makes Japan think very hard on what they can do on J3, because USA will have some sick fleet on US3 to strike with from Alaska.

@Mallery29:

You should use the DD to take down the remaing SS off of EUS (although my last game US won outright in the 2SS vs DD…that hurt me…lots of bad rolls for the Axis in that game).  The trans I would save…going for Norway will be a short lived negative investment for the UK…better to save the trans for later when you can drop a UK fleet.  Your forces will get killed in Norway, lose the transport, and will have not saved Russia from anything.

taking norway is a good move once germany navy is gone. it just seems MUCH easier to hold for the allies.

@ICinBrazil:

As much as I would like an alternative, I really don’t see one. To me it seems that leaving the south IJN alive can lead to a resemblance of the ole godzilla Japan. From the looks of it, one good take the three China territories and  Burma. The IJN is consolidated in SZ61 for a possible J2 India push.

just played one where japan went godzilla but with no fleet to oppoae them, they were a worthless fleet and germany fell. 2 hours later, so did japan (9 bombers and 6 subs wrecked 3 carriers and 3 battleships.

@AxisBrutality:

Yes, I’ll try it out this weekend. Fleet to Med is good suggestion and with IC on Egypt, that will give Germany some nightmare scenarios. It’s a good build-up suggestion too. I was thinking of 5 tanks - 2 on Egypt and 3 on India on UK2, but I can try also what you suggested. FTRs can always fly to India to protect India before J2, so I can’t see Japan taking India on J2 anyway. By UK3, all Germans in Northern Africa will be dead unless Germany wants to fight there and that means less pressure on Russia.  The faster I can clear Northern Africa of Germany, the faster can India be re-inforced with units from Egypt. Those 2 FTR from London could also land on India or Egypt on UK2, and I could move 2-3 FTR from Egypt to India, so they kind of trade off. There is an alternative route 2 UK FTR can fly, if not Archangel then West Africa.

I would love to put pressure with the U.S. on Japan in this scenario since Japan is more “free” since we are focusing on Med-strategy here. Then Alaska IC seems tempting, only 2 spaces from Japan. I would not need Alaska IC if we go our regular “take out E-Indies and build tanks on India strategy” which is great strategy, but if we go Med-strategy, then I think Alaska pressure on Japan would be good, since Japan can not take India on J2, and at the same time, Japan would have to worry about 2 battleships or something being placed on Alaska on US2, which makes Japan think very hard on what they can do on J3, because USA will have some sick fleet on US3 to strike with from Alaska.

This strategy looks crazy enough to work actually. However… the Axis counter would be to consolidate all German units on Algeria on G2 and place the Japanese transports off on J2 FIC to threaten an amphibious landing  on either India or Egypt. Interesting… let us know if it worked.

@miamiumike:

During the first two plays, it seemed obvious that UK should throw everything at the fleet off E. Indies - it is about a 60% win chance. However, both games ended in Allied losses - so I am left to wonder, maybe that isn’t the best use of the fleet after all.

The problem is that if it goes as expected, you might have one plane left - no ships to protect whatever transports you have out there. Maybe not a huge problem. If the battle goes against you though (as it did in one game), I think UK is in a lot of trouble.

What is difficult is making that first purchase for UK in India. If I knew my attack would work, buying a carrier and dd would make sense. You can land your surviving fighter on it, and if you position the Russian fighter, you can land it too - at least for one turn. Then, on turn 2, you could add to that fleet - I don’t think Japan could get through a 5-6 unit fleet AND have enough to take India as well? I do not have the numbers in front of me…

MM

Russian fighter goes to Egypt.  UK builds 3 destroyers in z35, strafes z37 with everything in range (including z39 transport) and then retreats to z35.  Japanese can sink that fleet but trading expensive ships and planes for destroyers.

@Vance:

Russian fighter goes to Egypt.  UK builds 3 destroyers in z35, strafes z37 with everything in range (including z39 transport) and then retreats to z35.   Japanese can sink that fleet but trading expensive ships and planes for destroyers.

That’s clever. If G1 doesn’t put you in danger of Sealion, then I’d propose a slightly different buy: CA, FTR & DD. Load up 2 INF on the AP. They’re not going to do much in Australia anyway. If you get lucky, then Japan will only get 2 hits. You can peel FTR and SS and retreat to 35. If Japan gets a lucky roll, then the AP from 35 might want to flee to 29 or 33 to avoid giving Japan an extra free bonus AP. Assuming Japan gets 2 hits, placement would leave you with DD, CV, 3 CA & 2 FTR on 35.

Let’s assume that you and Japan each got 2 hits on the strafing of 37, that Japan peeled FTR and tilted the BB, that you peeled FTR and SS, and that Japan wants to all out attack your navy. They’re 95% to win. That looks bad, but let’s look at the board immediately after. The total IJN is probably 2 BB, CV, CA, SS, 2 AP and whatever they bought. The total JAF is probably 2-3 FTR & a BMR. The US will have SS, 2 DD, CV, BB & 4 FTR in the Pacific theater at the start of US1. That’s pretty close to naval parity before the US has even spent an IPC.

I wonder how this would compare to the move of UK purchases CV SS FTR, fights to the death on SZ 37, and hopes that at least 1 FTR survives to land on the new CV in 35. In that scenario you would plan to put everything on 35 if you cleared 37, but you’d probably place the CV & SS on 7 if you got rockstomped in 37.

Also, all this depends on how SSR1 & G1 go. If Germany has a huge stack of FTR on Ukraine at the end of G1, then I’m probably buying CV & DD for 7 and 3 INF for India.

I like the idea of losing fighter instead of cruiser like you said.  Probably go with 1 fighter and 2 destroyers ($4 cheaper) and end up with 1 carrier, 2 fighters, 2 cruisers, 2 destroyers, 2 transports in z35.  That’s 7 units in the water instead of the 6 I would have got with my 3 destroyers.

I would leave the australians where they are though.  If you load them onto transports and attack z37 in combat movement phase and then retreat to z35 they have already moved that turn and they will not be able to unload in India as a NCM.  That would be 2 moves.  So the infantry would have to stay on the transport and die if Japan attacks.  Still, its nice to have the transports all save and snug in z35 because if Japan attacks they will be very weak afterward so maybe they will choose not to attack it.

Two thoughts (not endorsing anything, just feelers):

1. UK still attacks the EI fleet but understands it will be sacking it to cause chaos.  Assumption: Egypt UK FTR survives, Russia hit Ukraine.
   However, it uses the India CA/Trans to hit Borneo with 1 Burma inf, 1 India inf.  While the battle will not be won by UK, the damage it can inflict should be enough (the Japan CV will be gone, and likely it will lose a FTR with a possibility of taking out 1 more FTR or the BB.).  If the battle goes well enought to eliminate the Japanese fleet, you can take two inf from Aus and make your way to SZ30 for a UK2 reinforcement of India.  If even the BB and/or FTR survives, you can move the transport to SZ38 (lower left of Aus)…it may get sacked, but it keeps them from moving elsewhere with the BB/FTR.  You can reinforce India with two FTRs from UK on UK2.  Pros: Take 4IPC away from Japan, taking some heat off of Asia for a turn Con: weakens India by two inf/FTR.

2. UK avoids EI fleet. Assumptions: Russia hits Ukraine, Egypt FTR is gone, Russia moves Kazah inf to Schezwan. Russians stacked Buryatia or retreated (will go into that option here)
   UK1 buy is 2FTR, 1inf/2art (31 spent).  Use 2inf/CA/Trans as above (hit Borneo).  CV/FTR goes after Japan DD/Trans in SZ61 (FTR lands in Schezwan or can land in Buryatia if stacked, but Japan could still go all out for it, so I would rather retreat Buryatia and land FTR in Schezwan).  The other CA along with 1Aus inf, NZ inf, SS, Trans goes for Solomons.  UK uses the FTRs/Bomber to get to WRus (take out German Baltic fleet), so they can make it to India UK2(Bomber could go to Caucus for range purpose).
   US1: (assumption is UK CAs are gone, same with CV, UK SS submerged) US buys CV,Trans,FTR, SS, Art (save 1)

US moves everything West.  Move SZ 19 CA to WUS, Pac Fleet and its air force heads for Solomons only if Japan is out of range from hitting it J2. Get US Schezwan FTR to India. Otherwise, just send the FTRs/Bomber to Solomons, and keep all naval in Hawaii (transport 2inf there as well). place all buys in WUS
UK2: Inf/art/tank, 2FTRs (or save the money for preps for a UK3/4 naval buy for UK to take heat off Russia). Get UK Schezwan FTR back to India, land WRus FTRs in India.
US2: US Buys Trans,art,CV,FTR,SS (save none).  the end of US2, your Solomons should look like this: 2CV, 4FTR, 1Bomber, 2DD, BB, 2SS, CA, 2Trans w/3inf/art on Solomons w/ a CV/FTR/SS/Trans back in WUS as reserve.

This should take all the heat off India.  While they could build an IC in EI, they lose their shuck flow due to taking Borneo and killing the other transport.  I would assume they would go up the middle here, but that allows India to flex its muscle, and puts US able to hit Philliipines/Borneo US3 (may not do it, but the threat has been provided).  Japan would have to consider this.  (this is why I feel the Solomons are a key here for KJF).  Would like feedback/thoughts on this…did look at this at 1130pm last night, so fatigue may be an issue on it).  Debate away!