@aequitas:
Pride comes before the Fall!…
And Winter comes after the Fall, something which has worked to Russia’s advantage against many invaders.
The only chance of this succeeding is if Britain and America stayed out of the war with Germany long enough for Germany and Russia to deplete troops and supplies of their own in their own battle and then for Britain and the US to come in and clean up the mess afterwards.
If they had assassinated Stalin…
The ensuing power vacuum would have made some possibilities more interesting.
As for an offensive… if Europe AND America joined forces, maybe… but Europe - at the end of WWII, had NO interest in a new conflict :S some germans would have signed up - sure, but the people were war weary.
Just like the Americans - who didnt want to go to the Pacific.
Never march on Moscow.
Never march on Moscow.
Excellent advice.
"We march along the Moscow road,
Five score adventurous men.
The North Lights glitter in our eyes;
A continent shall be our prize,
Though cold slays five – twice five! – why then,
We march along the Moscow road,
Four score brave men and ten.
We march along the Moscow road,
Four score brave men and ten.
Tobolsk is passed, Yakutsk is near.
Ha! Ice and snow, think ye we fear?
Take twice your toll. We pay it. Then
We march along the Moscow road,
Four score adventurous men.
We march along the Moscow road,
Four score adventurous men.
Though crows shall flock to those that die,
And we gnaw shoe-straps, you and I,
And famine slays again, again
We march along the Moscow road,
A few adventurous men."
Had war between the East and West began in 1945 the West, if the Bomb was not used, would have had a difficult time containing the Red Army. Air power may have slowed the Soviets down at the Rhine River. Supplies would slow down the Soviet advance into France. The west would have been driven out of Balkans.
The communist groups in Europe would helped the Red Army in harassing Western Troops. Question is would Paris fall?
If held by the French, yes.
Would have been ironic though: too much for Napoleon, not for Zhukov. (Or Konev). And the French would have known how to cooperate with the victors.
Could not have crossed the Channel though, so who cares?
Rule Britannia!
And the RAF.
Finland would have gotten into ANOTHER winter war. :P
The only way it would have been possible, is if the Allies bailed the Germans out in 43, got into the act, and gave Japan a free hand at Vladisivostok whilst maintaining a cease-fire.
MAYBE, just MAYBE it could have been pulled off… but that NEVER would have happend.
hmmm interesting 90% of you guys dont’ think it would have been possible. i would like to emphasize that it’s not only the man power that matters but the leadership. read this:
" Under his leadership… General S. Patton… advanced farther, captured more enemy prisoners, and liberated more territory in less time than any other army in history "
Truly, I think Patton was the men who would have led U.S. army to capture Moscow, Stalingrad and most of oil rich regions in Russia. He also wanted to re-arm the German army and sent them against the Russians along with the U.S. troops.
The supplies would have been a problem. But Russia was also maintained on the U.S. supplies for it’s war effort, so the shortage would have worked both ways.
advanced farther, captured more enemy prisoners, and liberated more territory in less time than any other army in history
I think you mean AMERICAN history.
Zhukov basically liberated Moscow to Berlin. Probably captured, killed, and commanded WAY more troops and was probably over all more succesful.
That said. the quote is basically entirely WRONG. If you consider - that it was eisenhower who was in charge, and therefore patton’s success should fall under his umbrella.
The only arguement you have is the “less time” factor.
Even with fresh troops, and SS backups… a Patton blitz from Berlin to moscow, would have taken a VERY long time. And he is just as susceptible to death as everyone else. His troops were even weary of him…
You can’t impose democracy onto a people….doesn’t work…it has to be grown by the people themselves…and Russia had spies everywhere, so nuke or no nuke, they had the advantage…And I guarantee that if we had, we all would not be here now…and why invade when we haven’t finished off Japan completely? Japan and Russian end hostilities and join sides? No thanks…
That said… American industrial might was at it’s all time high… and the populations were the same - save Russia had just lost 10 or so million men, and was full of warn torn cities.
With absolutely NO ability of the Russians to attack mainland USA… the USA would have kept on keeping on, building bombs, and killing Ruskies.
How come that many of you count the Germans in?!..I really don´t think that they would have joint the Allies to fight OFF the Russians, maybe to the end of their borders but not all along the way again to Moscow…The reason is gone.
To count the Waffen SS in would be a nice try ,but remeber that the majority was allready Alien forces from the european countries and white russia…
I think you could add at least 100000 Germans/anti communist troops and officers. There are always those in losing armies who do not want to stop fighting, whether because they like it or because they know no other life. As for the SS and any foreign units they would have signed up to avoid reprisals or execution.More could have been coerced. I believe experienced German troops would have made a difference, but like others here think Moscow is a long way away from Berlin. Any attack may have faltered before the end, but may have made for a fairer world for those whose lands were “liberated”.
That said… American industrial might was at it’s all time high… and the populations were the same - save Russia had just lost 10 or so million men, and was full of warn torn cities.
With absolutely NO ability of the Russians to attack mainland USA… the USA would have kept on keeping on, building bombs, and killing Ruskies.
A lot easier for the Soviets to come through Alaska and into Canada as they were headed to Japan after all. In the end the USA would have had only 49 stars on the flag today and Ambassador Sarah Palinskaya would be sitting in the USSR’s embassy to this day.
Would that bother you?
Not at all. I live in Southern Ontario though which might have ended up as the 50th star in that scenario.
50 is a nice round number, i agree. If they had failed to add Alaska then would have had to find another. Mexico again?
If the Allies attacked on VE day they would of likely had a very bad time of it being outnumbered quite badly and outgunned at least on the ground. However if the Allies waited until they could pull the majority of their forces out of the Pacific (3-4 months after VJ Day) then that is a whole nother kettle of fish.
With the number of Allied aircraft committed in the Pacific recomitted to the skies of Europe the Soviets would of been badly out numbered in the air. Add to that the likely air raids on the Soviet oil fields all of sudden its not such a pretty picture. I have no illusions that it wouldnt of been a hard slog to Moscow but it would of been possible with enough preparation. You add to Allied Forces the millions of German soldiers who wanted revenge for the notorius acts committed by Soviet forces and it begins to look a whole lot brighter for the Allies. With the likes of Von Manstein and Guederian working with Patton and Eisenhower with all the resources the free world had to offer it would likely turn out in the allies favour.
In my opinion it wouldnt of been long until E-Series German tanks were advancing on the great plains of the USSR backed up by Mustangs and Spitfire’s keeping the skies clear over head. Its hard to think of the Soviets beating that back. Also throw into the mix the oncoming jet age, German designed tanks being built in U.S factories and the atomic bomb the Soviets would of had their hands full.
