Had the German 7th Army got the quality of supplies, weapons, man power and labor as the 15th Army in it’s defense of the ‘Atlantic Wall’ could the invasion been repelled?
Is this worthy of a poll question?
What reinforcements would the 7th Army need to repell the Allies? It’s common knowledge that the two static divisions on the beaches were of poor quality. Could another infantry division and the 12th ss been enough to turn the tide?
Possibly, but I doubt it. The 21st Panzer was unable to make any headway on the 6th because of the Navy disrupting its attacks. Although the US divisions found it hard making any headway on Omaha for most of the day, the beach was cleared by day’s end. The Allied build up was a great logistical feat and the Germans could only throw a weak ring around them.
I find it remarkable that the 352nd went unnoticed. That the Allies’ intelligence completely missed it!
I do not know figures for 7th and 15thSupplies wise, only guess that being closer to Germany priority would have been given to artillery ammo etc. The 15th army also had a large number of Coastal divisions(think 3/5 of the divisions in the West were static and 2 regiment Inf ones), but more regular ones too. Leadership wise, I think there was little difference between the 2 armies. Both Dolllman and Von Salmuth were nothing special. Marcks of the 84th xxx and several of his division commanders were exceptional.
Sorry Worsham, I write with my phone and so long pieces get harder to do as I go on.
My point is one division would not have made a difference on the day. Any more and SHAEF might have had to look elsewhere. Bay of Biscay may have worked!
I do not think Normandy would have been an Anzio. Normandy was good for defence(the Bocage), but Italy was a nightmare of rivers, mountains, hills and valleys. And it is thin!
We know the Allied superiority in the air too.
I think because the 5 beaches were so spread out and the 3 Para divisions were used too, The beaches were all going to be secured, despite another good division.
A division like the 12SS would never have been released by Hitler either. There were those who agreed with him, who thought the best defence was to mass armour further inland.
I think ultimately that France was too big for Germany to defend while deep at war with Russia.
If normandy had been repelled… I wonder how things would have unfolded on the eastern front?
Would Russia have liberated a Nazi France?
There would not have been an Ardennes offensive in Dec, so those massed reserves could have been used to hold Hungary or stem Bagration. Thousands of Prussian Germans would have been spared the Winter ravages of an angry Red Army.
I am sure the Allies could have tried again in 45, but Eastern Europe would have looked different.
The movie fatherland lists a quelled D-Day as leading to a seperate peace between the Germans and the Western Allies.
More time would allow more oppurtunity… more super weapons?
Nukes probably would have landed in europe instead.
I am sure the western Allies would not have negotiated a peace. They were still north of Rome and had just begun to start looking like they might win control of Germany’s skies.
Propaganda wise, would have strengthened the Nazi Party’s grip and Hitler would have continued giving everyone hope with his talk of wonder weapons. And yes, scared the Allies into thinking they would have to unleash theirs first.
I wonder if the July plot would have dissipated or if the thought of Hitler forever at the helm of their country might have given the plotters more reason to overthrow the leadership.
@wittman:
Bay of Biscay may have worked!
The supply problem the Allies had would only have got worse had the Biscay area been choosen as the landing area. The distance between England would have been lengthen and while the Biscay offered some good ports, Brest, Saint-Nazaire and Bordeaux. These ports were some of the best defended areas on the Atlantic Wall and would have been destroyed in capturing them. A example of this is Brest, which held out for over 6 weeks in a bloody battle. The rest of the Biscay Ports held out the rest of the War.
The Allies would have much further distance to capture Antwerp. This would have given the Germans time to destroy the best port in Western Europe.
Nukes probably would have landed in europe instead.
How, since the father of the Nuclear bomb was/is American? Openhiemer or how ever it is spelled.
I said Bay if Biscay, because the Allies could have landed there easily, but you are right without a port they would have found it hard to advance as well as they did in reality.The build up would have been half as fast too, because of the distance to England.
Hitler was obsessed with Fortresses and in the case of the Atlantic ones, they worked! May have been different if they had had naval guns firing on them. I do not know.
Normandy was perfect.
@Deaths:
Nukes probably would have landed in europe instead.
How, since the father of the Nuclear bomb was/is American? Openhiemer or how ever it is spelled.
I’m not sure I understand the question – meaning I’m not sure what connection Robert Oppenheimer’s nationality might have had with a possible decision to use the A-bomb on Germany if Germany had still been holding out in August 1945. As I recall, Oppenheimer didn’t want to see the bomb dropped on Japan, but it was used there anyway. The policy decision on using the bomb rested with the President in consultation with his senior military and political advisors. I don’t think Oppenheimer had much (if any) say in the matter.
If D-Day had failed, and the war in Europe was still raging away as a stale mate in the east, the Americans would have dropped the nuke on Berlin for sure.
Or Bremen/something like it.
@ABWorsham:
Had the German 7th Army got the quality of supplies, weapons, man power and labor as the 15th Army in it’s defense of the ‘Atlantic Wall’ could the invasion been repelled?
Is this worthy of a poll question?
What reinforcements would the 7th Army need to repell the Allies? It’s common knowledge that the two static divisions on the beaches were of poor quality. Could another infantry division and the 12th ss been enough to turn the tide?
It would be worth a try, also I think the matter of “If D-Day would have been a success IF certain circumstances may have been diffrent”, like landing not at Tide or Rommel stayed for some reasons in HQ, or …?
@wittman:
Possibly, but I doubt it. The 21st Panzer was unable to make any headway on the 6th because of the Navy disrupting its attacks. Although the US divisions found it hard making any headway on Omaha for most of the day, the beach was cleared by day’s end. The Allied build up was a great logistical feat and the Germans could only throw a weak ring around them.
I find it remarkable that the 352nd went unnoticed. That the Allies’ intelligence completely missed it!
I do not know figures for 7th and 15thSupplies wise, only guess that being closer to Germany priority would have been given to artillery ammo etc. The 15th army also had a large number of Coastal divisions(think 3/5 of the divisions in the West were static and 2 regiment Inf ones), but more regular ones too. Leadership wise, I think there was little difference between the 2 armies. Both Dolllman and Von Salmuth were nothing special. Marcks of the 84th xxx and several of his division commanders were exceptional.
What caught my Attention is:> I find it remarkable that the 352nd went unnoticed. That the Allies’ intelligence completely missed it!<
Do you have a source to it? what do you mean by it? Thank you for your answer upfront.
The 716th ID and the 352nd ID held almost 110 km Frontline together, were 54 km of it belonged to the 352nd ID to observe and cover.
They even shared a Regiment.
Hi a et v.
Have countless books on Normandy. Was my pet subject 15-20 years ago and it is something that has stuck in my head. I am sure I remember the Allies being unaware the 352 was in France. I suppose they thought they were only going to face the 716.
Will try to find evidence for it, but will not be for a few days. Sorry.
If D-Day had failed, and the war in Europe was still raging away as a stale mate in the east, the Americans would have dropped the nuke on Berlin for sure.
Or Bremen/something like it.
I thought you meant it would have landed in the hands of the Germans, not used on them, my bad
To aequitas et v.
Have found the Bigot report for 6th May 44. Either I remembered it wrongly or it was wrongly researched by the author (I know which I think). Allied intelligence was aware of the 352ID, but believed it was east of St Lo. Not on the beaches.
The editor starts by saying"much has been said about the failure of the Allies to detect the German 352nd division".
Williams: Enemy reaction to Overlord.
Worth reading.
Thank you for questioning my statement.
It would have not been the first time any Intelligence missed something on a hot subject. The Ardennes is one of the best examples for it or declaring Soviet roads as good solid Autobahns, too… :-D
Agreed. Intelligence is a fine art, rarely mastered.
I think I remembered something I read, but it was not completely right. I unferstand now that Army Intell expected to meet the 352, but not that early. It was a shock to find them on the beaches. I got it wrong.
It is nice to be challenged, If you can get to the truth by investigation and rereading.
In honor all the men that took part in an epic episode of WW2 lets discuss the divisions that took part in this struggle.
