.

@ExtraBilly:

Lee was an American the same way any human being born in the Western Hemisphere is an American.

The Western Hemisphere includes parts of Africa, Europe, Asia, and Oceania.

Wow. You can find out a lot about people though their posts. Call Bobby Lee an American general if you will. One thing you cannot call him is a winner.  :wink:

You can find out a lot about people though their posts

This coming from the guy who named his team the “billy club” ;)

@Gargantua:

You can find out a lot about people though their posts

This coming from the guy who named his team the “billy club” ;)

HaHa you came up with that one. CD I will be getting back to you shortly.

@ExtraBilly:

Wow. You can find out a lot about people though their posts. Call Bobby Lee an American general if you will. One thing you cannot call him is a winner.  :wink:

No leader past nor present could have won victory for the South. The odds were too great. The fact he kept his Army in existence from 1864 and 1865 shows his skills. Was he not Lincoln’s first choice for the North?

OK CD

1. I never mentioned Grant or Sherman in this thread other than alluding to a post in another thread over which Civil War general I would of liked to have been. You have tried to turn this into a Lee vs. Grant debate. It is you that continue to insist that I defend Grant’s war record (perhaps trying to deflect attention away from the ignoble Southern rebellion?) Which leads me to my next point. Grant’s soldiers would of had zero casualties and no civilians would of been harmed had the South not rebelled.

2. If you wanted Bobby Lee to get all the credit you started the thread you should have titled it “Best general from the Confederate States of America.” If by American you mean United States of America then once again Bobby Lee cannot be considered. As a general he led an army that fought against the United States of America. Its like saying George Washington was the greatest general in British history. Silly.

3. Many people from the Americas do not call themselves Americans. I was making a point that Bobby Lee was NOT a general in the service of the United States of America. Once again you should of titled your thread differently if you want to praise Bobby Lee. Bobby Lee betrayed the United States of America.

4. Abraham Lincoln is the Greatest of All Americans

@Cromwell_Dude:

Mule Shoe: Lee victorious. Grant loser.
Bloody Angle: Lee victorious. Grant loser.
Spotslyvania: Lee victorious. Grant loser.
Wilderness: Lee victorious. Grant loser.
Cold Harbor: Lee victorious. Grant loser.
the Crater: Lee victorious. Grant loser.

Addendum: Based on Grant’s losing record against Lee prior to the very last days of the War, what is there to admire about Grant? I know two things to ‘admire.’ The two very things that Grant used to defeat the Confederate Americans-massive butchery of his own soldiers to win the war of attrition and the war against civilians. Without those two attributes, Grant lost to Lee. Grant tightened the noose as attrition could not replace Southern soldiers and how the Northern army destroyed the civilian will to fight and eat. That’s where he won. To speak of Grant without this butchery and war against civilians is like talking about Washington without the Continental Army.

Who won the war? You can call Bobby Lee many things like a rebel or a traitor but you can not call him a winner.

Lee was an American general.
A good one wins battles when the odds are stacked against him, but he uses his assets perfectly, whether it be surprise, his better troops or a new tactic etc.
Sometimes, no matter the number of  victories, he ends up on the losing side. Hannibal is the prime example, but we know of a few WW2 ones too: Rommel, Guderian, Model and Von  Manstein.

@wittman:

Lee was an American general.
A good one wins battles when the odds are stacked against him, but he uses his assets perfectly, whether it be surprise, his better troops or a new tactic etc.
Sometimes, no matter the number of  victories, he ends up on the losing side. Hannibal is the prime example, but we know of a few WW2 ones too: Rommel, Guderian, Model and Von  Manstein.

Wow I cannot believe this concept is so hard to grasp. If praising Bobby Lee was the goal CD should have titled the thread “greatest general from the Confederate States of America”. Lee was never a general for THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Bobby Lee was a brilliant tactician who was loved by his soldiers. He was outstanding at conducting defensive battles and certainly made the most of what was provided to him. However, the only two campaigns which provided the South a glimmer of hope were the offensive campaigns in 62 and 63. Bobby Lee failed miserably! Every general you listed had success when conducting at least one offensive campaign. Bobby Lee had NONE.

More than anything else Bobby Lee was a traitor and a loser, but his former estate does make a nice cemetery.

How is retiring from the U.S Army to defend your home state traitorous? Is that not expected? Â

Wow what can a guy say to a  “stars and bars jedi” ?? Whatever that is.

I never claimed that Grant was the greatest American general. Washington was my choice. But here we go anyway.

1. Since you have constantly tried to turn this into Bobby Lee vs. Grant I will indulge you. Grant led a successful offensive campaign. Booby Lee never did.

2. No comments on Bobby Lee’s complete and utter failure in offensive warfare? Bobby Lee is revered because he executed a skillful defensive war that only prolonged the inevitable. The best thing Bobby Lee could of done for the South was surrender his army after Gettysburg. That was the South’s last chance to win the war and Bobby Lee completely FAILED

3. Bobby Lee was a leader in an armed rebellion against the United States of America. That is traitorous.

4. George Washington was a leader in an armed rebellion against Britain. That is traitorous.

Why is Bobby Lee a traitor and George Washington a hero? Washington was a WINNER.

I fully understand where you are coming from CD. People feel a need to justify and glamorize. Tough to think about such a massive loss of life for a losing cause. That being said the Southern Rebellion was not a just war and its military leaders came up lacking. To think that hundreds of thousands lost their lives so the wealthy could keep human beings as chattel is sickening. It is probably worse still to think that the war might have been won if only the South’s most revered commander could of conducted a successful offensive campaign. Sigh, Bobby Lee could not do so. Thus he is a just a traitor and a loser but Arlington is a nice cemetery.

Not mad either. You are obviously well read and articulate, and I enjoyed the banter. For the record, I am a hillbilly originally from Clarksburg, West Virginia. My great great grandmother was a Jackson kin to Stonewall. (Who by the way was the best general in the CSA. The valley campaign was genius)

Canada was the true winner of the Civil war. We fooled then north and the south into fighting over irrelevancies, so you didn’t send your forces after us!

Hah… we all know who the Greatest American General is… anyone who’s Canadian. :P

You really are a wind up merchant aren’t you!
We have amicably decided it is that famous general Lee/Jackson.

@wittman:

We have amicably decided it is that famous general Lee/Jackson.

I wonder if American actress Lee Grant (born Lyova Haskell Rosenthal) chose her stage name in reference to Robert E. Lee and Ulysses S. Grant?

Bolivar was the greatest

I wonder how Douglas MacArthur would have phrased his answer if anyone had asked him to identify the greatest American general of all time.

@CWO:

I wonder how Douglas MacArthur would have phrased his answer if anyone had asked him to identify the greatest American general of all time.

poetically