@BearXxx said in Re-America- Russia.:
Can America move units, from say Alaska too, Russia. ?
As long as either of them is neutral, they can’t. Once they are allied they can.
G1 Attack on Russia?
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A G1 attack will lock you in Russia for the rest of the game, and with a big chunk of the UK Fleet alive, the allies will have an easy time opening up a second front fairly soon. The UK will not have to defend from sea-lion, so Italy will be dead. And because you are going for a long-term victory in the south, I think that the UK needs to be crippled for this to work effectively.
I would want to know what your G1 purchases are, but I have my doubts that anything can justify a G1 attack.
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A G1 attack will lock you in Russia for the rest of the game, and with a big chunk of the UK Fleet alive, the allies will have an easy time opening up a second front fairly soon. The UK will not have to defend from sea-lion, so Italy will be dead. And because you are going for a long-term victory in the south, I think that the UK needs to be crippled for this to work effectively.
I would want to know what your G1 purchases are, but I have my doubts that anything can justify a G1 attack.
Isn’t it inevitable that Germany and Russia clash?
My first round purchases would be 1 destroyer, 1 fighter, and 4 men.
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At first I voted “bad idea” but I am going to change my vote.
I like the idea of knocking out those 7 infantry right off the bat. I think the key to it is if you can take Baltic states and Bessarabia with just infantry and planes, and save your armor for East Poland. To counterattack East Poland all they will have will be 2 infantry and 1 artillery from Belarus and North Ukraine, plus their precious red air force which they don’t want to risk losing against armor. So if they counterattack it will probably be against Baltic states and Bessarabia.
Now suppose you also NCM the 11 infantry and 3 artillery from Germany to Poland, and do a strafe/retreat from South Germany thru yugoslavia to Romania. Anything that counterattacks will be in a bad trap (notice they don’t have an AA gun in Ukraine so you can use air against them without fear).
SO the “real” barbarossa starts G2 in Baltic states and Bessarabia, but you already took out the 7 infantry along the border and you also have a strong foothold in East Poland as of G1.
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G1 Attack on Russia takes only 7 infantries, should lose about 2 infantries in the process.
Lose the NO, recover two for the territories and get exposed to counterattack.
So overall, the net gain is 4 infantries.
Biggest problem is that these attacks are a distraction / take too much away from the Western front.
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I think you can do it, with some good rolls on some key battles early you could put Russia on its heels. Along with a Japanese 1st round punch could put them on the ropes.
The key is round 3-5 to take and keep control of the Atlantic. Do whatever you can to get Italy $ so they can….almost hold their own
Kind of reminds me of the Original when the Axis have to hit Russia on one and win key battles, Then defend really well.
Good luck this weekend Young Grasshopper,I hope you can work out any bugs in the plan. -
Thanks, I’m up against a great opponent who doesn’t know what I’m planning, so I will play my best in an attempt to see if this strategy is relevant or not.
5:00 AM
Awake5:30 AM
Bus ride to the game, thought I would write a bit before I play.After all the votes suggesting that this may not be a good idea, I thought hard about the impact of a G2 attack on Russia, but my logic keeps bringing me back to G1 (either I’m on to something or I’m ilogical). Ever since I stared at the board after Larry’s last changes, I felt that a G1 attack on Russia was the next best thing to do as Germany (maybe I need to get my butt whopped today in order to forget it and move on).
I am glad so see at least one other member feel that I’m not crazy, and thanks to Kpn and SA for the support.
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IF your opponent is familiar with this website, I think he’ll be fairly confident about what the plan is.
Anyway since German goes first there is not much he can do about it!
Sounds like a coffee day.
@Young:
Thanks, I’m up against a great opponent who doesn’t know what I’m planning, so I will play my best in an attempt to see if this strategy is relevant or not.
5:00 AM
Awake5:30 AM
Bus ride to the game, thought I would write a bit before I play.After all the votes suggesting that this may not be a good idea, I thought hard about the impact of a G2 attack on Russia, but my logic keeps bringing me back to G1 (either I’m on to something or I’m ilogical). Ever since I stared at the board after Larry’s last changes, I felt that a G1 attack on Russia was the next best thing to do as Germany (maybe I need to get my butt whopped today in order to forget it and move on).
I am glad so see at least one other member feel that I’m not crazy, and thanks to Kpn and SA for the support.
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EVERY Day is a COFFEE day :P
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EVERY Day is a COFFEE day :P
Of course!
Any opinion to share on my Bulgaria thread? Would be interested in your thoughts.
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It’s an interesting idea. But the NO swing seems to discourage it (-5 for G, +5 for R).
It sounds like you are taking and holding epl, but allowing Russia to counter you in bst and bess. But I’m not sure how you hold epl without diverting some tanks (from the Fra battle) from South Germany. Anyway, it’s difficult to offer an opinion without seeing your exact deployment.
Personally I wouldn’t want to divert any planes away from UK1 attacks, which leaves 3 planes leftover (since there’s no ac buy). Normally one uses those in Fra or Yugo.
The idea is worth considering but seems a bit dicey. You are exposed to dice in bst and bess in addition to yugo. And finally Epl could be countered if you get diced. And if you divert tanks/planes from Fra to the eastern front you could end up getting diced in Fra too.
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I said not ready to be judged in the poll, mainly because I haven’t seen a G1 Russia assault, and don’t have the board set up to check it out (in the middle of a game).
My first though is it would be nice to kill off the 7 Russian inf, but you would probably get stalled early on (not enough strength, and Italy would have a hard time catching up). As Russia I would probably send a small force into the Mid East R1 to grab Persia, and make a play for Iraq (Russian NO), to offset my early tt losses. From there I might even try to get a mech or tank to Egypt to claim some Italian tt in Africa if opportunity arises for more NO bonuses. You may even see Russia try to hit Finland at some point depending on if your Germany does any Naval builds.
Very interesting, will stay posted to see how things went.
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I looked into this more closely and I am starting to like Grasshopper’s idea a lot. They way I would do it is to send the tanks from Poland and South Germany to East Poland and hit z111 instead of z110 to free up air units for France. The 4 mechs from West Germany will NCM to Hungary and Italy takes South France. Normandy stays French so allies can’t use the IC later.
Even if dice are unfavorable, Baltic states and Bessarabia are being attacked by the same number of infantry as they have (plus 1 fig, 1 tac each) so even if they all hit the planes are safe. The goal is to kill the Russian infantry so it’s OK if Bal and Bes are cleared but not taken. If the Yugo strafe goes bad (ie you lose a lot or you actually win and get stuck there) you have the mechs in Hungary as reserve. The tank from Romania goes to Yugo (and back), the tank from Hungary activates Bulgaria. France gets 7 inf, 3 art, 3 armor, 3 tac, 1 bomber. z111 gets a sub, a battleship, 3 fig, 1 bomber. z125 gets a sub to deny Russia the Murmansk NO for the first turn. I would build a sub, destroyer, 1 mech, 2 armor. So that’s my take on it.
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In my prior analysis, forgot to consider the Russian NO:
Kill 7 infantry, but lose 2 (maybe more), net gain of 5.
Gain 2 IPC, but lose 5, Russia lose 2 IPC (assuming no counter) and gains 5.
So the net infantry gain is 3 / 9 IPC.
Now, you’ll make me believe that the use of these planes can’t make you gain more than 9 IPC somewhere else? 9 IPC is one fighter you lose or 1 extra fighter you kill.
As mentioned, Russians can move in middle east , take persia and Iraq on R2. Take Iraq with 1 tank, 2 infantry, 1 tac. Take persia with 1 mech from the initial setup.
On R3, the mechanized units are back to Caucasus and back into the action for R4 (unless Germany went North). Persia, Iraq and the NO are + 7 of income. The two infantries from Persia replace the infantries lost in Iraq.
If someone attacks G1, I would likely retake baltic using my air power / cheap units in order to protect my North flank. Since I would have more money to spend in the long run, would likely go for a more offensive force (more planes and artillery than normal).
A Sea Lion will most likely be off the map with this tactic, so RAF / UK buys can be a bit more agressive.
The Russian sub would go convoy Raid Norway also…
It would be a fun game to play ;)
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@Vance:
I looked into this more closely and I am starting to like Grasshopper’s idea a lot. They way I would do it is to send the tanks from Poland and South Germany to East Poland and hit z111 instead of z110 to free up air units for France. The 4 mechs from West Germany will NCM to Hungary and Italy takes South France. Normandy stays French so allies can’t use the IC later.
Even if dice are unfavorable, Baltic states and Bessarabia are being attacked by the same number of infantry as they have (plus 1 fig, 1 tac each) so even if they all hit the planes are safe. The goal is to kill the Russian infantry so it’s OK if Bal and Bes are cleared but not taken. If the Yugo strafe goes bad (ie you lose a lot or you actually win and get stuck there) you have the mechs in Hungary as reserve. The tank from Romania goes to Yugo (and back), the tank from Hungary activates Bulgaria. France gets 7 inf, 3 art, 3 armor, 3 tac, 1 bomber. z111 gets a sub, a battleship, 3 fig, 1 bomber. z125 gets a sub to deny Russia the Murmansk NO for the first turn. I would build a sub, destroyer, 1 mech, 2 armor. So that’s my take on it.
leaving 110 alone seems like a great way to shoot italy in the foot. that UK fleet left alive can slip into the med, causing some real headaches for the axis early on, plus leaving a sub off norway to deny the russian objective is only good if you’ve taken out the DDs is 109 and 111 (6ipc unit to deny a 5ipc NO for 1 turn only: BAD) seems like there are too many bases to cover than germany can handle for a g1 russia. harassing uk and getting italy setup seem like better uses of g1 moves
that being said, i am intrigued by the idea, and it would if done “correctly” change the game up, throw the allies off balance
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All done (very tiered).
Well this is my third attempt at a G1 attack on Russia, the first 2 try’s were “to close to judge effectiveness”, but I believed in its possibilitys to try again, and today was a “good if planed right” (very good if planned right). I will report later, but this strategy will get legs for sure.
Basically I took Leningrad turn 2, and took Africa with Japan (more later).
Cheers.
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Sounds awesome. congrats!
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Grasshopper’s G1 attack on Russia
I purchased 1 destroyer, 6 infantry, and 1 artillery.
I sent 2 Strategic Bombers on Leningrad for a SBR. (took zero losses and bombed the IC for 6 damage)
I hit the Baltic States with 3 infantry and 1 tank from Poland, 1 tac bomber from Western Germany and 1 fighter from Slovakia, (lost 1 infantry)
I hit Eastern Poland with 2 infantry and 1 tank from Slovakia, and 3 tanks from Southern Germany, (took zero losses)
I hit Bessarabia with 2 infantry and 1 tank from Romania, and 1 tac bomber from Poland, (lost 1 infantry)
I hit #106 with 2 subs, (kept both)
I hit #91 with 2 subs, (lost one)
I hit #111 with 1 sub, 4 fighters, 3 tac bombers, and 1 battleship, UK scrambled their fighter, (lost sub and battleship, kept all planes)
I hit france with all land units on West Germany and Holland, (lost 6 infantry)
I walked on Finland with 3 infantry from Norway, and transported 2 from Germany to Norway from #113, I also moved my cruised into #113.
I moved all remaining infantry and artillery from Germany to Poland.
I moved all remaining infantry and artillery from Southern Germany to Slovakia.
I landed all air units from #111 back to Western Germany, and landed all air units fighting in Russia on Poland.
I placed all new units in Western Germany and #113.
I didn’t walk on Bulgaria, and I didn’t attack Yugoslavia, Normandy, or Southern France.
Why
I was very happy with my first round results, and although there will be plenty of opinion on how something like this should be executed, I wouldn’t change anything at this point in the experiment.
1. I would never send an air unit when attacking France, giving the enemy an opportunity to shot down a plane is not never necessary when there are enough land units to take it. However, if you want Normandy in turn #1 as well, than things will need to thin out a little.
2. I didn’t take Yugoslavia and its up for debate weather or not everything I did can happen if you want Yugo. I personally choose to get the odds I needed in Bessarabia, and follow it up with everything from Southern Germany for a strong counter later on. I found that taking the IC in the Ukraine takes a long time even with those units pulling up the rear…. if I lose them getting Yugo, I’m bare in the South. Essentially I left all the Balkan states to the Italians, especially the Bugaria walk on, they really needed it in order to take Greece and Yugo.
3. I took the Battleship into #111 in order to soak hits, I know a lot of you won’t like that move, but I put more value on air units than other players, it’s just preference.
4. Some of you may feel that I took in too many units when less could have done the job just as well, but what I have found over my last 3 G1 on Russia attempts is… first round sweeps are key as I took very few losses in Russia and took 7 infantry off his plate.
5. The NO situation will be debated for a long time, and will probably be the crutch that keep players from trying this, but if you think about it… You will replace your $5 peace NO with the Leningrad NO eventually anyway.
6. Of course Germany took Normandy and Southern France during round 2.
1st Round Summary
There’s no doubt that I surprised my opponent (not all players I play against go to these forums or know my handle) and to be honest, I have never seen him take so long to finish a turn as he did with his R1. Thats a sign to me that I was doing something good, I really forced him to make some hard choices, and after a counter attack on the baltic states went wrong for him (forcing a retreat) he decided to pull back from Leningrad. I’m not saying that he made the right choice, but obviously he didn’t want to spend $6 in repairs (I might have) and he didn’t take the Baltic States with what he brought in (not sure what I would have done there), and seeing the large amount of forces in Poland, Slovakia Eastern Poland and Finland (the result of no Yugo, or Sealion) ready to counter anything he brings to the line…. he may have felt wise to retreat Leningrad so early. Never the less, my $5 peace NO was replaced by the $5 Leningrad NO by the collect income phase of turn 2.
The rest of the game
In Russia I stuck to my plan, I never moved past Leningrad in the north and I just built up and waited until the Southern forces could take the Ukraine IC. I used that time to build a solid defensive line that connected Leningrad, Belarus, Western Ukraine and eventually Ukraine. Once I had all of them I built a 3rd IC in Western Ukraine and was pumping 6 units straight into the front. Now some of you might be saying that you would never let me do that if you were playing Russia, but other than trying to hold Leningrad for 1 more round, there wasn’t anything much that he could have done but continue to retreat to Moscow, which is what happens every game anyway…. I’m just doing it a lot sooner. In the end I was on the steps of Stalingrad & Moscow with superior numbers, but I was 2 rounds away from being comfortable about it and we had to pack it up and go. During our stand off along the battle line I created, Russia was making $28>$30 and Germany was making $60>$64. As for support, Germany finished to game with 22 air units which did a great job of concentrating in France to hit an allied fleet of ships, and than getting back the the eastern front to ward off any Russian ideas of moving forward.
Japan’s role was simple, take India and continue on to take Egypt. The UK built an IC in Egypt first turn as expected, because the UK was clear from a sealion attempt. As Japan I sent everything south, and I mean everything. I captured India on Round 4 with great ease and I than continued west landing in the middle east, and eventually took the IC in Egypt (which was a little harder than taking India). Japan lost all of its coastal territories to a powerfull China (didn’t jump into that meat grinder) and seeing as I was going to lose all gains in Russia anyway, I didn’t bother helping Germany by taking $5 in Russian territories, and losing tons of infantry doing it. I decided instead to help Italy, who could in turn help Germany. By the end of the game Japan had 8 ICs… 1 owned, 4 purchased, and 3 captured, in Tokyo, FIC, India, West India, Persia, Iraq, Egypt, and South Africa. America was hitting my convoy zone for $11, and my home factory was bombed to the max, but I had built up to 35 infantry on Tokyo over the course of the game, so I kept my Capital without much threat of lossing it. America was now spending heavy in the Atlantic instead of enough transports in the Pacific, so I had enough money and factories to make a difference.
Italy held on for dear life and even managed to take Gibraltar for a few rounds, but for them it was about collecting all the money the Germans left them in the Balkans and avoiding all the British elements trying to destroy them. The best thing Italy did was land in Trans Jordan twice, which cut off some Brit boats from entering the Med. but in the end all Italy could do is to try and reach the $20+ income bracket and protect its Capital (which they did all of the above). After Japan was in Africa and ready to take it 100% all Italy had to do was send troops to France to absorb some of the hits that were soon to land, but never did because we ended the game.
Game Summary
1. Germany is safe to attack Russia turn one.
2. Italy needs Help.
3. Japan’s presents is more felt in the middle east than in far east Russia.
End Result
The axis only need 2 more victory cities, the very 2 that Germany were right next door to, but even though Japan was 3 territories away from taking all of Africa and Germany had almost double the numbers as Russia, my opponent wouldn’t give up as he cited his massive American navies as a balancer. I reluctantly ended the game as a draw, but as far as my experiment with a G1 attack on Russia…… I’m a winner.
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Wow that looks effective. I might try that in my next game, see if I can pull it off.
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Sounds like you have a lot done before America even joins the war, and what you did with Japan will keep Italy safe from naval attack in the med
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What did UK / Anzac do in this game?
How much money was Japan making?
In fact, how much were all the nations making and was the allied Navy able to te-take one victory city in Europe?
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