@Young:
Will anyone be submitting a version of this R&D rule (if so, please hilite the title with bold red).
Thought we already had one, in the poll. If not, I’ll consolidate down what was said into one coherent post - if and when I get my head above water again! (Should be no later than Tuesday…Kids go back to school FINALLY…fracking, week off for Thanksgiving…I’ll give them thanksgiving by not…sorry, where was I?)
Research & Development (Young Grasshopper & Cmdr Jennifer)
The Research & Development Phase is no longer an optional rule, instead……
Each power will receive free dice rolls @6 to develop technology, based on the amount of cash they hold at the beginning of their turn.
$10 - 49 IPC = 1 Roll
$50 - 89 IPC = 2 Rolls
$90 - 119 IPC = 3 Rolls
$120 - 149 IPC = 4 Rolls
$150 - 224 IPC = 5 Rolls
$225 + IPC = 6 Rolls
If the requirements are met, nations will receive their free roll/s regardless of how they accumulated their cash, or how many technologies they own (unless they own all technologies available, in which case they will cease researching technologies). National powers may purchase additional research dice if they wish, at the cost of $8 IPC each, and they must purchase at least 4 dice but no more than 6 dice if they purchase any dice.
Each national power must have control of their Capital and be at war in order to research technologies.
China may not research technologies under any circumstances.
For each 6 rolled, that Nation will receive a dice roll to develop a technology by matching the # on the dice with the # on the chart. Rolls for technologies already owned may be re-rolled.
Research and Development Chart
Optional Rule: You may elect to play without technologies in any game.
Edited to correct a spelling error.
Great version Jen, thanks for the entry…… BTW, I think your first sentence contradicts your last (just an observation).
Was trying to word it in such a way as Technology was a core rule, but there was an official optional rule to play without technology. Sort of like how technology is an optional rule in Global. That way, the default is technology on.
If I missed a fundamental part of the rule that we agreed on, let me know. I think I have it all, but you never know. I don’t want someone feeling like I purposely left their suggestion out!
@mantlefan:
I am opposed to the dice being based on cash on hand. It gives too much incentive for saving IPC’s which slows the game down. Instead, why not base it on where your income marker is at the start of your turn + NOs you currently satisfy? This gives incentive to attack and get the game moving, as well as holding territories you did attack so that the enemy doesn’t take them back before you get their income.
For example
0-18= 0 Rolls
19-35= 1 Roll
36-60= 2 rolls
61-95= 3 rolls
96+ = 4 rollsAnd just so tech isn’t totally free, have the rolls cost 2 IPC each. Or maybe 2 each and 1 for each one thereafter.
I realize that the idea in post 1 allows players to save up to get more tech rolls but IMO all that encourages is slower, riskier play. I am pretty uncomfortable with any system slowing the game down by encouraging the saving of IPCs.
Or, if the problem is minor powerss not being allowed into tech, give discounts for starting with more IPC. Economies of scale and all that.
I kinda like those
Should there be a limit on how many IPCs you can save? I mean, if IPCs really represent “1 million man hours of military industrial production”, wouldn’t saving all your IPCs for a turn be like laying off the entire workforce for 3 months and then making them all work double time the following 3 months?
@Vance:
Should there be a limit on how many IPCs you can save? I mean, if IPCs really represent “1 million man hours of military industrial production”, wouldn’t saving all your IPCs for a turn be like laying off the entire workforce for 3 months and then making them all work double time the following 3 months?
Do you mean in general?
I’d say no limits, since saving IPC is giving up the advantage of time.
Like maybe you can’t save up more than 25% or something?
No! No need to limit things!
You know, I’d love a system based on how much money you earn, not how much you have on hand. The only problems I have these:
1) The enemy will take your land before your next round. Do we want this to be the case?
2) Technology comes before combat moves, so you cannot take territories to get your income up, do we want that to be the case?
BTW, I am only offering suggestions.
That said, I see no problem with a country saving IPC. It’s a good tactic even now, without having technology. You cannot afford to put out XYZ or you want to save cash so you can get X-number of infantry or whatever. Thing is, if a nation is shooting itself in the foot (it has the cash, it has the ability to use the cash and there is a productive use for the cash that is less and less productive if you wait more and more rounds) then I see no problem with them doing so.
I see your argument, it makes logical sense, but I dismiss it for two reasons:
1) It was not voted on in the original poll.
2) I like the cash on hand system better since it allows nations to save the one or two IPC needed to qualify for a technology. Not sure about the world at large, but I’ve often found myself with 1 or 2 extra IPC that I just had no valid reason to spend, this would put those to use.
@mantlefan:
I already noted this as well, you can take the territories; the turn before. Then you need to try to hold them. Therefore this system does not reward the 1 to 2 inf + ftr trading that we so often see on the Russian front.
A system based on income encourages aggressiveness and putting more troops on the line. A system based on cash on hand encourages sluggish playing and minimal actual commitment to territories. If you want dice you have to earn them by taking and holding territories, rather than slowing the game down to wait for a miracle tech to save the day.
well that makes a lot of sense. You are convincing me that the tech should be based off income instead of CoH. As Jen mentioned people can still save up for purchases, but not in order to get more tech dice. Moving the game forward at a fast pace should be a goal of ours, we don’t want 20+ round online games to be the standard.
Maybe for the final vote, two versions could be made: 1 based on cash on hand, and one based on income from territories.
@Cmdr:
I see your argument, it makes logical sense, but I dismiss it for two reasons:
1) It was not voted on in the original poll.
2) I like the cash on hand system better since it allows nations to save the one or two IPC needed to qualify for a technology. Not sure about the world at large, but I’ve often found myself with 1 or 2 extra IPC that I just had no valid reason to spend, this would put those to use.Those ipcs always get spent the next round. I agree with mantlefan that basing it off CoH will slow the game down, like you said above. It sounds like you would be willing to save 3-5 ipcs one round if it meant another tech die next round no?
Yes, I’d save 1-5 IPC to get up to the next bracket, it’s cheaper than buying 4 dice.
I am good with limiting you to up to 5 IPC saved from the previous round to be added in. Not sure how you would work it on the table top, but in ABattlemap you could use the Researchers column in the income table to track that. Probably on the table I’d have to slip the saved cash that is counted under my setup tile or something else.
No arbitrary limits, if you can save money then you can save as much as you like towards tech.
Hey Mantlefan, if you find some free time you would mind going over our other Delta proposals? Getting a new set of eyes would be great. I would suggest reading the original proposal, making comments on that and then see if that area was covered. UK Exile I think is the next one to be completed, and then neutral blocks and aa guns.
Also using A2 as the base we are trying to achieve balance between the two sides while giving the axis (who hold initiative) multiple avenues of attack. Its tricky!
Yes, I understood what you were saying, Mantlefan. It makes sense in certain aspects, but I feel given just how expensive it is to buy tech dice (32 IPC for the first 4, 48 for the first 6 with a maximum of 6 dice per turn) that countriest who cannot save their cash may not be able to participate in getting technologies. Pretty much the only way smaller countries have to get technologies (mostly India and Australia, but I’ve seen Japan get crushed under the jack-boot of American imperialism as well) is the free dice system. If they cannot save enough to get that one free die, they might not be able to get any technologies.
Perhaps, and I cannot read your mind, but perhaps you forgot that the price of extra dice was pretty hefty under the new system? To put it mildly, it would take 50-67% of Germany’s income just to buy a set of dice to augment their free ones.
Here’s a counter proposal we never considered. Stick with 2 charts but have one be the “free dice chart” and the other a “dice only chart” where the free dice chart only has half the abilities of the other. So if you rolled your free dice and got #3 then you would only get Paratrooper’s technology, not the Heavy Bombers. If you purchased dice and got #3 then you would get both Paratroopers and Heavy Bombers.
For table top play you throw red dice for purchased tech and white dice for free tech and there you go. For online you just have two command lines. On the battleboards (I call all the boards battleboards, not just the actual battleboard) just go with Chart #1 is free and Chart #2 is paid. You can never get the “free” technology with “paid” dice. Not that you would want too. Same for the reverse.
(quoted the rule below, so you don’t have to go back and find it.)
- Improved Bomber Technology (Combine the following):
- Paratroopers (2 infantry)
- Heavy Bombers (2d6)
BTW, I think that’s a fair balance. If nations are going to “save up” for free rolls they’re going to need an extra 40 IPC to get up a bracket. I don’t picture nations doing this, not when they can buy 4 rolls for 32 IPC or 5 rolls for 40 IPC or 6 rolls for 48 IPC. If they are earning 8 IPC they might buy 2 infantry and save 2 IPC and thus get a free tech roll, but it won’t do them much good even if they get it, they’re already in dire straights.
Well I don’t see any nations saving money so they can purchase other dice. I think they would save money so they can get more ‘free’ dice and then spend the remaining ipcs on troops.
Strategically, I have to admit if I was Allies and Germ saved ipcs, Russia would then save ipcs. If Japan saved, then the rest of the allies will save ipcs too. Since the axis have the initiative the allies have to react to the axis, whats a better way than to try and reach parity in the tech race before fighting? Plus there are a finite number of techs, once you have them all you can release the dogs of war. It’d be boring as heck to playtest but I am willing to try it.
Further, a nation’s income is a better arbiter of their material power than CoH, which can be saved by the player.
@mantlefan:
If I could get a little more direction as to which thread(s), I’d love to help.
I believe they are all on the first and second pages in this forum.(house rules) Each thread will have ‘delta’ or ‘delta1’ in the title and a few pages of dialogue.
I understand the complaint, I’m just saying if you need 40 IPC to get to the next teir, that’s A LOT of saved money! You’d be far better off spending 32 IPC and getting 4 dice than sitting around with an extra 40 IPC in your pocket each round.
