Neutral Blocks Discussion - Delta+1

@special:

@Cmdr:

Maybe if the allies attack a true neutral, any pro-allied neutral, that is not currently owned by the allies, would go true neutral?

But which pro-Allied neutral would still not be activated by the time a neutral crush would take place?

Ireland, Crete…ok fine!  You make a point!

BTW, the idea of taking an NO away because an ally does something is not new!  You lose the SZ 125 NO if America or England lands a plane on your territory, even if you did not give them permission to do so!

@Cmdr:

I just thought of this, what if the allies take a true neutral, the United States immediately and forever loses their 10 IPC NO for the Continental United States?  I never liked that one anyway and it would be fitting punishment.  Call it loss of trade revenues with neutral nations - economic sanctions by the League of Nations (dont care if they could do that or not, they could make an agreement to stop trading with the US!).

Not a bad idea at all!

@Young:

@special:

@Cmdr:

I just thought of this, what if the allies take a true neutral, the United States immediately and forever loses their 10 IPC NO for the Continental United States?  I never liked that one anyway and it would be fitting punishment.  Call it loss of trade revenues with neutral nations - economic sanctions by the League of Nations (dont care if they could do that or not, they could make an agreement to stop trading with the US!).

Not a bad idea at all!

Will the US be able to invade neutrals if they endure this penalty…… I would hope so.

i think so, basically they can harvest about 10 IPC’s in true neutrals, so with some effort (and time) they can neutralize the penalty (which is not bad, since the USA is often found to be too powerful, this way neutral crush won’t happen for economical gain).

Correct.  I foresee the US sending a small contingent to Samerica.  Grabbing Brazil and hitting Venezula will get you 4 ipcs and even on infantry.  That will leave 4 inf 2 art under my current iteration to counter, spread in Chile and Argentina.  Axis will probably coalesce or perhaps take Brazil, but the main issue the allies will have to deal with is the 3 new axis ships.  I thought about adding a sub to SAmerica but I feel a roving axis sub could make its money back and then some in the SAtalntic/Indian Oceans.

Germany will probably collect on Samerica for a turn, and then US will most likely mop up the rest.

In Europe, we have two scenarios to consider, Germany attacking Iberia to control Gib, this would probably be in conjunction with a pure barbarossa campaign.  Secondly is the Allies(US) taking it to open a new front in Europe while threatening all of Italy.  This is where the playtesting will come in.

Turkey and the middle East I feel is really only under threat from the Axis, can anyone see a reason the Allies would break neutrality that makes sense?  The Turkish fleet might survive and if it does it is safe in the Black sea.  SaudiArabia and Afghanistan provide boots on the ground immediately and 2 ipcs to UK provided London is not captured.

Yes, I think it would be up to the American player to figure out if he wanted to garb S. America to recover the lost revenue and if so, how.

I can see two methods:

1)  Set up a few transports so you can hit all but Argentina in one round (it’s the only one you cannot get too from E. USA by my count.)  Perhaps by setting it up from the get go, just having the transports and troops ready to deploy immediately.

2)  Go back with a transport and an aircraft carrier and snipe the territories as needed.    In this case, Argentina would be the hard one, but could be done.

Of course, who’s to say you give it all to America???  Perhaps you want ANZAC to take Argentina, Chili and Brazil, huh?

Here’s another idea:
    If one of the strict neutrals in a block is attacked, the others not only become Pro-Axis, but those which are still neutral get an infantry bonus. For example, If US attacks Venezuela, then Argentina and Chile both get an extra 1-4 infantry, due to local resistance to American forces. If Italy attacked, the same thing would happen.

Current Neutral Blocks Proposal.

I am going to lay my proposal out in full, this is the ‘official’ proposal however if anyone else has their own ‘official’ proposal it will be entered into consideration.  Please be thorough.

Neutral Blocks
SAmerica- all territories in Samerica minus Brazil.
Middle East-Turkey, Arabia, Afghanistan
Iberia and Colonies-Portugal, Spain and all African neutral territories including Liberia and Sierra Leone.
Switzerland, alone

Mongolia is removed from the ‘strict neutral’ camp and is added to the Japanese/Russia non-aggression pact.  If Russia attacks Japan, Mongolia remains neutral all game.  If Japan attacks Russia Mongolia immediately joins Russia, replace Mongolian troops with Russians and place control markers on Mongolian territories.

Sweden is removed from the ‘strict neutral’ camp.  It is now tied to the German NO for Swedish iron ore.  So long as Sweden is not controlled by the Allies Germany collects a 5 ipc NO.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.  Replace units with Germans.

Amended Force Pools for Neutrals
Argentina) 1 aa gun, 1 art
Venezuela)1 art
Chile)1 art
sz65)1dd
sz66)1 dd 1 CA
Turkey)2 art 1 ftr
sz100)1 dd 1 CA
Spain)1 aa gun, 1 ftr, 1 arm
Liberia)1 inf
sz91)1 dd
sz92)1 dd 1 CA 1 sub
Sweden)1 art 1 arm 1 ftr
sz114)1 dd 1 CA

Miscellaneous
When a neutral block is attacked, all other territories within that block immediately join the opposing side.  Players choose which power the entire block will join.  All units and territories are replaced with the new controlling power and they will collect ipcs for remaining territories in their next collect income phase.

If Germany attacks say, Turkey, on G3 does that immediately bring USA and USSR into the war?  Can USA attack Spain then?

USA would be restricted to coastal territories until they are at war just as in A2.  Not sure if they should be allowed to invade Samerica while Neutral, I am guessing not.

Great question about Turkey, the Axis could try and delay Barbarossa and instead position an army in Persia for a drive north.  That would be interesting.  First they will have to deal with the British who have been beefed up by 6 inf and 2 ipcs.  Also the fleet in the Black sea would have to go to UK as well.  All units could go to Russia I suppose….Allies deciding.

I see the problem you are eluding to, that the Axis might be able to do some serious damage and the Russians will be unable to stop it.  I need to playtest sooo bad, perhaps after Thanksgiving.

Its also looking like India could be a valid Axis target, take China and India out and try for a Pacific win…must playtest:)

EDIT: possible fix might be to put an aa gun in Turkey.

Maybe Turkey’s navy could be in z99 instead of z100.  I think if the axis hit a neutral, USA and USSR should be allowed to declare war.

@Young:

Instead of a continent NO, for the States, we could call it a world trade NO, and it would rely on America not attacking neutrals.

Aye.

@Vance:

If Germany attacks say, Turkey, on G3 does that immediately bring USA and USSR into the war?  Can USA attack Spain then?

Interesting.

However, America could take these territories and then what?  Germany could attack and bring America into the war, or watch America put a complex down and build units ready to make an attack?  Or just fret over having Americans on Continental Europe early.

@JimmyHat:

Sweden is removed from the ‘true neutral’ camp.  It is now tied to the German NO for Swedish iron ore.  If Sweden is neutral or controlled by the axis Germany collects 5 ipcs.  If Russia controls both Finland and Norway then Sweden will join the Axis at the beginning of Germany’s next turn.  Replace units with Germans.

I have a few comments.  First, I would change the language to “strict neutral” following the original rules (I am sure everyone knew what you meant, but players involved in rules disputes can get very nitpicky.  More importantly, by saying the are removed from the true (strict) neutral camp, what does that mean? Can any power attack Sweden or Mongolia before your conditions take place?  Since you are giving Sweden some unnamed exceptional status at the start of the game, your NO would better read, “If Sweden is not controlled by the Allies then Germany collects 5 IPCs.”

@JimmyHat:

Miscellaneous
When a neutral country is attacked, all other territories within that block immediately join the opposing side.  Players choose which power the entire block will join.  All units and territories are replaced with the new controlling power and they will collect ipcs for remaining territories in their next collect income phase.

Here, I highly recommend being more specific about which player chooses.  I assume you mean that if the Allies are attacking a block, block control is decided by the Axis (and vice versa).

I think it is very good, but I would like to see a statement that any attack by an axis power on any Strict Neutral territory or its ships while the USA and/or USSR are neutral will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.  That would allow USA to attack Spain and USSR to counterattack Turkey if Italy and Germany try to tag team the middle east before America wakes up  (imagine what such a strategy would do if Japan also hits India early).

Simplified Collaborative Neutral Rules

A. An attack by any Axis power upon any territory within a Neutral Block will result in all territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Allied power the Allied player chooses.  An attack by any Allied power upon any territory within a Neutral Block will result in all territories and armies within that Block immediately joining whichever Axis power the Axis player chooses.  The six Neutral Blocks are:

1. South America (VEN, COL, ECU, PER, BOL, PAR, CHI, ARG, URG)
2. Iberia & Africa (SPA, POR, ANG, MOZ, RDO, PRG, SIE, LIB)
3. Islamic (TURK, SAUD, AFG)
4. Mongolia (OLG, DZA, TSA, CMO, ULA, BUY)
5. Sweden (SWE)
6. Switzerland (SWI)

B. The United States Continental NO is now called the World Trade NO.  If the United States attacks any strict neutral, it may never again collect this NO.

C. An attack by an Axis power on any strict neutral territory while the USA and/or USSR are not yet at war will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.

Strongly Suggested:
D. Adding aa guns, artillery, fighters, and possibly naval units to selected strict neutral territories to help balance.  In particular, Turkey and Spain.  This will be determined collaboratively if this variant of neutral block rules is accepted.

@Vance:

I think it is very good, but I would like to see a statement that any attack by an axis power on any Strict Neutral territory or its ships while the USA and/or USSR are neutral will result in USA and USSR immediately joining the Allies.  That would allow USA to attack Spain and USSR to counterattack Turkey if Italy and Germany try to tag team the middle east before America wakes up  (imagine what such a strategy would do if Japan also hits India early).

I think this is something I would add after playtesting.  I don’t think we will need the Allies to DOW the axis in this case if it proves to not be game changing.  We should keep this in the back pocket though in case this issue arises we got the fix.

Quote from Wheatbeer
Here, I highly recommend being more specific about which player chooses.  I assume you mean that if the Allies are attacking a block, block control is decided by the Axis (and vice versa).  The idea behind letting the defending side choose its leader is that allows the defending team to decide who is going to get those few ipcs, but also the ships and units.  I thought about going with closest ally, but letting the alliance choose gives the players variable experiences.  It shouldn’t affect balance.