Neutral Blocks Discussion - Delta+1

@Young:

Here is a simple solution:

When an axis power attacks a true neutral territory, all remaining true neutrals within that block become pro-allies. Any IPC value of a true neutral teritorry is a one time bonus only, to the invading power at the time of occupation. This IPC value may never again be collected in the game regardless of how many times the territory is captured or recaptured.

This way, the reasons for over taking a true neutral are strategical and not a shameless money grab, also, there is no reason to balance the blocks with massive neutral armies if the territories are worthless.

This is just a simple idea I had, and I don’t mean to undermine the great work that has been done up to this point. I just don’t see how force pools help balance Alpha+2, if it’s just a bandaid for the neutral blocks rule.

I kinda like this idea. But this means that for example S.America will completely be out of the game, as it has almost no strategic value whatsoever.

In fact only Spain, Sweden, Turkey and Saoudi Arabia will remain in the running. Is that a good or a bad thing? I don’t know…

@JimmyHat:

Putting them in realistic political blocks weakens the neutrals overall, but there is another realistic solution and that is to add other types of units besides infantry to Neutrals.  Spain had a huge fleet and they had left over weapons from the Civil war, Sweden had a nice army and good defensible terrain, Turkey rivaled Russia for control of the Black sea.  Giving these neutral nations slightly larger armies gives them a bit more flavor if you ask me and a chance for the true nerds out there to model an Argentinean aa gun and such….pointing no fingers.

A practical question: those neutral naval units, which miniatures are players going to use for them?

I don’t really mind S. America being out of the running in most games.  However, I have used S. America to destroy N. America with Germany (and Japan landing in Alaska/Threat to W. USA) before.

Argentina = Minor Complex
Brazil = Minor Complex
Venezuaela = Minor Complex
and
Chile = Minor Complex

Coupled with very minor reinforcements as needed allowed for Central America to be traded (W. Indies gone) with lots of submarines in SZ 101 and SZ 10…USA was pretty crippled…then again, I did lose Berlin to the Russians that game…

I didn’t mean to imply this happens routinely!  It was unique to that game, specifically!  I was trying to kill America first and I did so, but again, that was game specific and I don’t think I could repeat the process against the same person!

@Young:

@Cmdr:

I don’t really mind S. America being out of the running in most games.  However, I have used S. America to destroy N. America with Germany (and Japan landing in Alaska/Threat to W. USA) before.

Argentina = Minor Complex
Brazil = Minor Complex
Venezuaela = Minor Complex
and
Chile = Minor Complex

Coupled with very minor reinforcements as needed allowed for Central America to be traded (W. Indies gone) with lots of submarines in SZ 101 and SZ 10…USA was pretty crippled…then again, I did lose Berlin to the Russians that game…

No offense Jen, but I will go out on a limb and say that some of the situations you describe in your games (like the one above) are very rare to games played by most of the members here.

It looks good to me, but maybe we need to stipulate that they go allied or axis but to the power closest to them?  So the United States of America does not suddenly get Turkey while at peace.

Or better, why not toss a die?

1-2 America
3-4 England
5-6 Russia

1-3 Germany
4-6 Italy

(Afghanistan and Mongolia are the only ones on the Pacific map, seems obvious how they should default - to me anyway.)

@Young:

Here is a simple solution:

When an axis power attacks a true neutral territory, all remaining true neutrals within that block become pro-allies. Any IPC value of a true neutral teritorry is a one time bonus only, to the invading power at the time of occupation. This IPC value may never again be collected in the game regardless of how many times the territory is captured or recaptured.

This way, the reasons for over taking a true neutral are strategical and not a shameless money grab, also, there is no reason to balance the blocks with massive neutral armies if the territories are worthless.

This is just a simple idea I had, and I don’t mean to undermine the great work that has been done up to this point. I just don’t see how force pools help balance Alpha+2, if it’s just a bandaid for the neutral blocks rule.

@special:

@JimmyHat:

Putting them in realistic political blocks weakens the neutrals overall, but there is another realistic solution and that is to add other types of units besides infantry to Neutrals.  Spain had a huge fleet and they had left over weapons from the Civil war, Sweden had a nice army and good defensible terrain, Turkey rivaled Russia for control of the Black sea.  Giving these neutral nations slightly larger armies gives them a bit more flavor if you ask me and a chance for the true nerds out there to model an Argentinean aa gun and such….pointing no fingers.

A practical question: those neutral naval units, which miniatures are players going to use for them?

When the block is attacked the defender chooses which country will control the units and replaces the neutral units with pieces of his own.

@JimmyHat:

@special:

@JimmyHat:

Putting them in realistic political blocks weakens the neutrals overall, but there is another realistic solution and that is to add other types of units besides infantry to Neutrals.  Spain had a huge fleet and they had left over weapons from the Civil war, Sweden had a nice army and good defensible terrain, Turkey rivaled Russia for control of the Black sea.  Giving these neutral nations slightly larger armies gives them a bit more flavor if you ask me and a chance for the true nerds out there to model an Argentinean aa gun and such….pointing no fingers.

A practical question: those neutral naval units, which miniatures are players going to use for them?

When the block is attacked the defender chooses which country will control the units and replaces the neutral units with pieces of his own.

So the neutrals are active right away?

Correct, like the current A3 mongolia rule.  This means the attacker will have to expect a counter attack right away.

Okay.

Could be good in the way that a neutral fleet needs to be fought as well before their country is invaded, if by amphibious assault. (ergo no coastals)

That was my thinking, and if those ships are not hit then they have a chance to get away, meaning the invading power will probably try and kill them.

@Young:

….If we bang our heads trying to find a way to get S.A into the war, we will end up shifting the balance of the game, and let’s face it, other than ANZAC, America is the only nation that stands to benifet from S.A

I think making neutral IPCs a 1 time bonus makes a lot of sense, kind of like taking the IPCs won for taking the capital of the neutral country (Madrid, Istanbul, etc.).  It also solves one potential problem I think we were talking about with regards to the UK gov’t in exile rule: Canada might build a couple transports and go on an adventure in South America instead of the US to get that income for the allies but not suffer the USA’s 10IPC penalty.  If UK in exile can collect for territories outside Canada (which they can according to the rule as it now stands), then South America would be their stomping ground.

I think I have come across an issue with my version of the Neutral blocks in regards to Sweden.  If Germany can collect the NO while Sweden is Neutral, then that means in order for the allies to block this NO they will have to invade Sweden.

Not sure if this is an issue or if we can instead connect that NO to Denmark/Sweden, just an observation I have come across.

Yes, I think the Allies have to invade Sweeden to kill the NO.  I don’t really have an issue with this as I expect the allies to be hitting Spain eventually anyway.

@Young:

Here is a simple solution:

When an axis power attacks a true neutral territory, all remaining true neutrals within that block become pro-allies. Any IPC value of a true neutral teritorry is a one time bonus only, to the invading power at the time of occupation. This IPC value may never again be collected in the game regardless of how many times the territory is captured or recaptured.

This way, the reasons for over taking a true neutral are strategical and not a shameless money grab, also, there is no reason to balance the blocks with massive neutral armies if the territories are worthless.

just to clarify, are you suggesting that at the fall of a neutral all other countries in the block immediately join the other side?  And then that other side, and including the original invader, do not collect income from the territories after  the first round?  This is an economics game, and I could see this having a big impact on whether or not people attack neutrals.  The only issue I see with it is the penalty is still not high enough.  Sure the payout is less, but for US 3 ipcs isn’t as big a deal as getting an army in spain to threaten Europe.

This could still be a viable version to playtest, Right now we have 2 versions, mine and wheatbeers to try out.