On the Existence of "God"

@EmuGod:

Just to add to my previous post, the only way for me to understand your explanation of how the universe was created due to a set of random probabilities is if you say that universes were created and destroyed until this one was created.

This is not what i said (up to the last post), and you come close to a “correct” conclusion.
We have to differ between things inside our universe (that’s how life sprang up etc.) and outside our universe (that would include the question of how it came into being).
Questions for the second we can by no means answer. So, i cannot tell wether there have been “more tries”, i can only tell that if there have been more, then most likely these universes have collapsed quickly.

This would work with the laws of probability,

I agree, though from the philosophical point of view i have to ask:
Why are laws of probability valid outside our universe? Maybe mathematics is god? Why could a differnt universe not have 1+1=0, with a total different math and statistics to follow? Why is math “universal” for all possible universes and outside those universes?

If this universe was the goal and was created through random events such as Big Bangs, then universes would have been created until this one would have formed.

There need not be a goal. This implies that there is a meaning in the universe (and life).

However, this theory would mean that nature is merely the tendency to “roll” certain results over others.

Whenever i talk of “nature” i talk of things inside our universe. You mix that up again. There can be some kind of natural laws “outside” our universe, but i can’t tell too much what they are like. I can say that they probably are very different should they exist at all.
How can something without dimensions exist? How many dimensions are outside our universe? I say “it can’t” for the first, and “no idea” for the second.

I would also like to remind you that science does not have all the answers. Even some of the fundamental scientific principles we use can be broken. For example, … Why have I brought this up? Just to show that science and math are not as simple and straight forward as they seem.

Agreed, and it is even worse: Gödel proved that there are sentences and therorems in maths that are correct but cannot be proven correct.

Imagine having to change your entire pereception fo the world to accomodate a world based on the circular or one the hyperbolic coordinate axes. Science is no simpler than any rational religion. Both are limited in how much they can answer, but at least religion (I know at least my religion) does not claim it can address everything we as humans do not understand.

Your “imagine”-advice is already happening, since Einstein. It has become more and more complex. True.
But then, science naver claimed to be “simple”. They sure try to find the most “simple”, “elegant” solutions. And to be honest: science does not claim to address everything we don’t understand, but it takes some effort to understand more each day. Thinking science “knows all” is a misperception. There are limits, there are limits we know of, there are limits we know to be unbreakable.

One question that i always like to raise, EmuGod, and that you might like to answer:
Is god allmighty? If yes (and as i understand you god obeys to logic), then can this entity create something that would then be out of his might?
The classical paradox: Can god create a stone that is too heavy for god to lift it?

@cystic:

The “why” is the rub - the ache - the thing keeping us up at night. All science tells us is “to reproduce” or “because random chance dictated this long ago”.

I think that many people confuse the “how” and the “why”… Is “why does the sun go upevery morning” a valid “why”, or just a “how”? Is “why is the sun yellow” a valid “why”? …

And the “reproduce thing” … wasn’t that the bible ? Something like “go forth and multiply?” ;) … How mean especially to some snakes, they must cry, being adders :)

btw… don’t drink and derive ;)

is the Universe really THAT complicated? ???

i mean the thing is Vaster then i can imagine but the law of Gravity Covers alot and almost 50% of why things work the way they do. just because something is Vast doenst mean its Complicated.

and yes 50% may be a an exageration but what we dont understand now we understand through time and Research. look how far we came in 50 years eh ;) this is Mike btw

The next question of course would be “why does the law of gravity work?”
…
If you follow this path, you will come to more and more "why"s, just like the little child that ask this kind of questions. And of course, at some stage, you will end up with a “we don’t know (yet)”…
This can be critized as “science doesn’t have all answers”, but have a look how far we have gone: How good we have become at reducing these questions to some axioms or underlying principles…
Just ask “why does one side of a magnet attract one side and repulses the other side of a magnet?”… and i will answer: Because of the principle of conservation of charge and a minkowski-metric in our 4-dimensional universe…
This probably does not help you without further explanation, but it is close to most underlying principles.

@F_alk:

@cystic:

The “why” is the rub - the ache - the thing keeping us up at night. All science tells us is “to reproduce” or “because random chance dictated this long ago”.

I think that many people confuse the “how” and the “why”… Is “why does the sun go upevery morning” a valid “why”, or just a “how”? Is “why is the sun yellow” a valid “why”? …

And the “reproduce thing” … wasn’t that the bible ? Something like “go forth and multiply?” ;) … How mean especially to some snakes, they must cry, being adders :)

btw… don’t drink and derive ;)

ironically enough i’d had a couple beers, the last of my port and some wine before writing that . . . :D

over an infinite amount of time, given an infinite amount of rain and an infinite amount of paper, it is a mathematical certainty that eventually all the great works would be typed out an infinite number of times with precision . . . (not to shoot down a creationist theory but . . . i think it’s a cute idea).

CC, i like that…
would you accept the proof that god does not exists, because you can find the sentence “god does not exist” in every language, in ASCII and binary code, in the numbers pi, sqrt(2), sqrt(3), e and all sums and differences of these numbers? … that just must mean something :)…
It also says “CC is wrong in some things” in there ;)

u might be able to get those great works in about a year of Rain, i mean u can get it in 3 seconds but like infinite is not that necissary

It’s necessary for unity probability.

k

@F_alk:

CC, i like that…
would you accept the proof that god does not exists, because you can find the sentence “god does not exist” in every language, in ASCII and binary code, in the numbers pi, sqrt(2), sqrt(3), e and all sums and differences of these numbers? … that just must mean something :)…
It also says “CC is wrong in some things” in there ;)

I’m pretty sure that you could prolly find stuff like “God is alive and waiting to meet with F_alk and have a discussion with him/her regarding the error of his/her ways” too . . . :)

Absolutely, but you will also find the same sentence with the addition that god agrees wholeheartedly with me :)

hello.
First of all, im surprised that this discussion hasnt yet lead to a flame war, respect to that!
Of course i dont have an answer to the question does god exist or does he not.
i just wanna add my two cents and tell my not-so-little story about my experience with god. read it or dont, its up to you. excuse mistakes, im after all, german.
im 21 years old and from germany. a few years ago i met the girl that i will be soon marrying on the internet. shes from usa, and up to now ive been there visiting quite alot of times. (for those thinking about nerds and internet relationships, it all worked out naturally, no “lets be together now” in front of the computer monitor)
my fiances family happens to be christians, and so am i now.
but it wasnt always like that. i hated religion. faith was a good thing for me, but i deeply hated any kind of religion. with a passion. alot. point made.
being from germany i grew up with catholic churches and classes at school. , which is probably the reason i so hated it. i never even read the bible.
back to my fiance. whenever i was there, we went to church every sunday. it made me sick, sometimes literally. i couldnt stand it, just went because it were a few more hours i could spend with her before i had to go back to germany.
not until lately, something changed tho. i could feel something during church, call it the holy spirit, call it what u want. and it didnt make me as sick anymore. quite the opposite actually, i was wondering, became curious, wanted to know more about it. so i talked to the preacher. hes pretty cool, not much older than i am, and he was a great help to me.
we read the bible, whenever i had questions i asked, and he answered. he gave me tons of books and videos and whatnot which i didnt/couldnt all read/watch.
i started enjoying church, not the singing part, but him preaching, it was awesome. i just wanted to know more, deal with it since i never had before.
im not much of a feeling person, im more the logical type, so he gave me some books on that topic that id like to recommend to everyone here, they are really good books in my opinion and helped me make alot more sense to the mistery called god and jesus.

one is called “the case for christ” by Lee Strobel, i guess you could look it up on amazon for more details. it was like made for me and answered alot of questions and also things i hadnt thot about before.

then, science and faith were never really a contradiction for me. it all fit, god made it how it is now. (ive always been a science person, had physics advanced class [“leistungskurs” for all the germans here] and enjoyed it!)
then i thot about it some more and the creation of the world kinda seemed to make a few problems here, evolution vs god made it all.
thus i read another book, which i already had but never read before.
its called “the evolution of a creationist” by jobe martin. it wasnt as good as the case for christ, not as clearly written , and i was also looking for more “neutral” material on that issue, thus the “isnt god great!” parts of that book werent really to my liking. nevertheless, filtering out all the information, it was pretty interesting! i sure will look further into that matter, get a few more books on that topic, but that one got me started., it explained it pretty well for me.
i think amazon could provide a more detailed description of that book.

right now im reading “my utmost for his highest” by oswald chamber and another devotional bible study book, and it helps me to get to know more.
i like my new-found faith, although its harder to do than i thought it would be.
this is only my story, no “be more open-minded” or “do this do that” talk, its ur decision what u do with it. being more open-minded helped me and looking back i realized how blind i was before.

again, im glad this didnt become a flame war like it does most of the times.
this said, keep on posting!
.Christoph

Well, thesquire, that is an interesting story. Im not positive whether your point had anything to do with why you suddenly were interested in religion and excited about it, or if it was more about the books, but I will address it anyway. I think, that it had nothing to do with anything other than your fiance. I think what happened was a kind of association, your fiance went to church, and you went to spend time with her. since you went more and more, you began to like it, and possibly associate it in your mind (subconciously) with her, so that it became a pleasant, and even entertaining or enjoyable experience.

@Janus1:

Well, thesquire, that is an interesting story. Im not positive whether your point had anything to do with why you suddenly were interested in religion and excited about it, or if it was more about the books, but I will address it anyway. I think, that it had nothing to do with anything other than your fiance. I think what happened was a kind of association, your fiance went to church, and you went to spend time with her. since you went more and more, you began to like it, and possibly associate it in your mind (subconciously) with her, so that it became a pleasant, and even entertaining or enjoyable experience.

If my g/f made me go to anything it would piss me off even more. Especially if it was something i had hated since childhood for whatever reason.

no she didnt make me, lots of times i just didnt go. but what was i supposed to do, she had her point, our time was limited, so i just took the bitter pill and went, and believe me, it did make me mad, not at her, guess at life in general to make me suffer that , or ironically maybe at god :D

and it took me about 2 years to finally “like” church enough to find out more about it.
so ya, you might say its my fiances “fault” that i now believe in god, but i dont see it negativly at all. and why did it take 2 years for me? it just changed like that, no “well this week it was a little better”, one day i started feeling the holy spirit and then it started.

i dont really know what my point was, guess just writing my story, cos i cant convince anyone if he/she doesnt want to get convinced. those two books (3 actually) helped a great deal.
the reason i hated it was 1. the catholic church and 2. my lack of knowledge about god/bible/jesus/etc. that is, had i known more i probly wouldnt have hated it ,as you can see now. most ppl wont even touch a bible and still they rant about how stupid believing in god is. i say why not learn a little more about it, what do u have to lose?
.christoph

I’ve seen that Protestant services are more of a celebration of God and life. Alot of singing and such. Catholic services deal with ritual and ceremony. The sermons however, do present a moral lesson or a New Testament event.
thesquire- Is your fiance’ Catholic or Protestant? A digruntled Catholic moving to a Protestant arena may enjoy Church more…

I’ve seen that Protestant services are more of a celebration of God and life. Alot of singing and such. Catholic services deal with ritual and ceremony. The sermons however, do present a moral lesson or a New Testament event.

yeah thats what i noticed too, and thats what made me change. im “evangelisch”, which is protestant, in germany, been baptized too and all, but at school and pretty much everytime i dealt with it it was catholic (i was on a catholic school).
my fiance and her family are going to the baptist church and it is alooot different from catholic, not as much ritual and ceremony.
i like that and i think if it were more like that here in germany, alot more people would actually go to church.
.Christoph

The Protestant Reformation was born in Germany, but it sounds like you may have grown up in a strong Catholic area anyway. Where I grew up in New Jersey was like that as well. If you are still searching for a more agreeable Christian group to join, Germany should have various groups such as the Lutherans or Calvinists to check out hopefully within a local area…