G40 Alpha 2 carry on game for fun

Here is the map YOU uploaded.  Look in the sea zone and tell me how many American transports you see there that YOU did not remove.

Per the tournament rules, the map you upload is the correct position of the pieces.  Therefore, by the letter of the law of the tournament, those transports existed on America’s turn.  Also by the letter the Fr. Fighter cannot move yet, but it’s relatively moot with 8 British fighters in Gibraltar, you are not attacking it, so it will be there on France’s turn.  Which, coincidentally, helps you out when trying to do Italy, but does not help me out at all.

Anyway…yes, America is at 72 IPC.  You screwed up the map.  If you want to be all accusatory and try to blame me for cheating.  After all, I am a little busy, I cannot micromanage and correct all your mistakes for you, I have a league to prepare for next year and a tournament going on this year, not to mention some games for fun.

I am also re-uploading my map with the Fr. Fighter moved back.  Unless you do something really bone-headed, the French fighter is going to Gibraltar.  (Currently it resides in London, where it has been for most of the game, if not all of it.)

I look forward to the emminant death of the Axis powers, and remind you, that you need to check your maps before uploading them.  You left the transports, so on my turn, I assumed they were not killed.  Since it is legal for you to withdraw attacking forces without killing the transports (that are units that must be hit to be destroyed, they just cannot defend themselves) then I figured you had done that.  It certainly would have a strategic purpose, as it moves the units off islands you might want.

Jenn_v_BBB_05cJAP.AAM
Jenn_v_BBB_05dALL.AAM

I already conceeded that the French move was strictly illegal, it just seemed in the best interests of keeping a game moving.

Anyway, it’s been a hard few days, and I think I may have vented my frustration out here.  Your map was incorrect and thus, I should not have been held responsible, however, you probably just forgot to remove the transports after your attack.  Thing is, you jumped immediately into calling me a cheater - a very hot button issue after the slanders and libelousness of Mantlefan.

You claim you left mistakes on the map on purpose, which seems counter productive.  You can see how busy I am, I am so busy you had to give a reminder post so I remembered we had the game.

You realize entrapment is illegal in real life, I suggest using it here is, at best, unethical.  If you want to have France wait around and force you to give up a week of your life between Italy and Germany just so I can tell you the fighter moves to Gibraltar, then that’s fine with me.  I leave that decision to you.  Of course, if it were me, I’d rather just have the French fighter moved since it cannot possibly have any significant impact on the game board, except, it won’t be available to hit any targets since it has been declared out of order, and press on with Germany.

@BigBadBruce:

Oh! one more thing, I did take a screen shot of this page… in case a “server problem” would makes it disappear… again…

This has never been an issue.  Slanderous statements, libelous statements and trolling/flaming statements are always removed per site policy.  I don’t see your posts as such (unless some have been removed while I was hosting my husband’s surprise party).

I’d recommend avoiding any purposeful map errors and just playing the game.    You know, full well, I am quite swamped at the moment, so much so, you had to post a reminder so that I even remembered we had a game going.  On top of that, you want me to have the entire game board memorized and detail out every minor mistake you probably made that I was too busy to catch?  Sorry.  That ceases to be a “for fun” game, in my mind, and becomes a “job” game like League/Tournament.

@BigBadBruce:

What about aleutian islands?

Even if those transport were good, you can’t load from Midway since z25 is an hostile sea zone.
That attack is not possible.

Actually, where you left the units on your map, the 2 Infantry, 2 Artillery and 2 Transports are in the sea zone.  (View > List Units).  It is a legal move to disengage loaded and unloaded transports from a hostile sea zone and use those units in an amphibious assault elsewhere.

So yes, you did make a HUGE mistake by screwing with the map.  No where did the American move stipulate the units were offloaded and you never declared the transports as lost.  Yes, you might have had the dice to sink them, but that’s irrelevant, the rules under which the game began stated that the maps would supercede all other factors.

Now, it is true that the units were placed on the island.  It is also true that you almost certianly intended to engage the transports in the sea zone, I would see no reason not to assume this.  But get off your damn high horse and stop trying to game the system.  Either play the game for fun or conceed that you cannot play a game for fun, you just wanted to screw with a busy moderator.

Yes, due to the many inconsistencies and errors on your turn, I made a mistake and the Aleutian Islands battle could not take place.  Fine.  This does not excuse all the goofjuice you are trying to shove down my throat or anyone else’s.  Yes, by the strictest sense of the rules, the French (AND NOW ALSO THE AUSTRALIANS) have to wait for Italy, but you know, as well as I, that declaring the French Fighter to Gibraltar does nothing but help the Axis powers as now they know what France has done and can act accordingly.  Not to mention, you and I both know that I’ve been so busy you had to bump the thread to get a round posted, do you honstly think I’ll be able to get you a France Round in less than 72 hours after Italy is posted?

Cut the drek.  Play the game, stop trying to screw around looking for tiny inconsistencies and make sure your maps are accurate.  If you think there is an inaccuracy, ask, it’s supposed to be a “for fun” game according to your own thread title.

BBB,

You said you specifically left an error on the board.  I pointed out that I was, and am, too busy to be bogged down “looking for errors you leave” and that this sort of behavior is not what I expect in a game “for fun.”

I acknowledged the mistakes but also pointed out, that given the errors you left, there is a good argument that I did not actually violate the rules since the units were in the sea zone, thus, must have been on the transports and thus, were allowed to disengage and engage in a combat elsewhere.  We both know they were on the island, but that’s not what your map said and I never officially declared them to be there. (Although my map had them physically on the island or at least adjacent to a unit that was physically on the island.)

I then asked you to stop screwing around with the board trying to set up situations in which mistakes could be made, or for that matter legal moves being created that were never intended.  You see, since the units WERE IN THE WATER WITH THE TRANSPORTS, they never had to actually LOAD in the sea zone.  The way your map had them, they were already ON the transports.  So yes, you leaving “errors” on the map to “test me” did make the move legal.

You are correct, and I did say I did not specifically state where the units were, but the map I left didn’t exactly leave doubts as to my intentions.

I also said, we both KNEW they were supposed to be on the islands, but the official tournament rules stipulate that where you leave your units on the last map you upload, are where they are.  You jostled my units around causing a situation in which I, legally, had the right to make the move - then you called me a cheater for doing it.  I’ve stated that the move should be reversed, but you seem intent on trying to prove your wild accusations and attempting to spin things in such a way as to make yourself look like a better person.  Just stop.  No one is buying it.

None of my arguments have anything to do with your “proof” of anything, they are responses to your statements that you were “testing” me to show me a cheater.  The entire point of my arguments (which you seem to purposely blind yourself too) is that you shouldn’t be trying to play games screwing around with the board trying to trick people, especially in a “for fun” game.  Putting YOUR OWN units in the corner of a territory is one thing, but if you move your opponent’s tiles around, then you run the risk of screwing it up and giving your opponent an unfair advantage.  For example, you moved the Infantry and Artillery into the ocean.  Perhaps you wanted to see what was there, but you never moved them back, therefore, there is a VALID argument that you loaded them on the transports for me and thus, on my turn, I was legally allowed to move them.  Never did I say I was going to do so, I even said on more than one occasion that you were right and the units should be on Midway.  That does not invalidate the argument that you are making routine mistakes and attempting to use them to catch your opponent “cheating.”  (The fact that you are trying to make your opponent cheat and thus giving them legal moves seems to be beyond your comprehension.)

Let’s rephrase this:  You specifically move a French destroyer from SZ 81 to SZ 98 (you being the axis powers.)  ON France’s turn they see the destroyer in SZ 98 and use it to hit the Italian transports in SZ 92.  France did a legal move.  I don’t care if you go back to France’s map and show the destroyer was really in SZ 81, because you, as the axis powers, took a legal move and changed where the piece was, you became liable for all acts that revolved around the unwarranted change.

Of course, you cannot just willy nilly change things to your own advantage, if you screw around with your opponents pieces, then it can only hurt you, it can never hurt your opponent.  The rules were explicitly laid out in that manner to prevent opponents from cheating by moving things around, or saying they “forgot to build” their units.  You either do your move correctly, or, you take the worst of the scenarios (either correcting it, or leaving it as it stands.)  The only exception are if the rules are broken illegally. (You forget to land your planes.  Since it is not legal for them to land on newly taken territories, you must move them to a legal spot before proceeding.)  (Another example, you build 4 units at a minor complex, because you might have made a mistake, you put a boat out and forgot you were also putting out a boat, so you also put three ground units out or whatever.  Or if you buy too many units (as per rules) the extra are refunded too you, they are not lost to the ether.)

As for “specially (sic) to be confusing” yes, if this was still a tournament game, I should detail out each and every placement in writing and on the board.  So?  No, I don’t always detail where things come from.  If I am attacking W. USA and all I have are 2 Infantry, 1 Battleship, 1 Transport, 1 Fighter and 1 Tactical Bomber and I say “2 Inf, Fig, Tac + BB shot to W. USA” then it is pretty darn clear where the units are coming from.  By tournament rules, yes, they should be detailed.  In a for fun game, they probably do not.  Nor should you have to wait to do France when doing a game for fun. (Hence why the rules explicitly stated that the tournament must wait for France before starting Germany again.  Many players don’t bother, they just say “did France with Australia” since France rarely, if ever, can do anything except as defense to Germany.)

So, if you had the power to edit your post, or I to do it for you in a game thread, I’d ask you to remove your bold text.  I think you are getting heated because I feel, based on what you said, you were trying to create a situation in which I would cheat (knowing how busy I was) and not only did it backfire, the situation you created caused a situation where the “cheat” turned out to be a legal move.  Perhaps you need to take a break from the game.  Not conceed, just take a day to cool off.

Keep in mind, you are reading a lot more into what I am saying than what is being said.  I think you are starting to read what you want into what was being said, probably due to you getting angry.  I said “your map moved the units into the Ocean, thus it caused a legal move where none exist.”  I did not say I left them in the sea zone.  I even said “you and I both know the peices should be on Midway.”  I am using the whole thing to demonstrate why it is a BAD idea to try and TRAP someone into a position where they might make an illegal move, just so you can call them a cheater.  By doing so, you are, in point of fact, making an illegal move legal.  Nevermind that the units are supposed to be on Midway and that the transports should be dead.  That’s not what you left and being as busy as I am, I didn’t have time to go micromanage your last turn to see what screwups you left on the map.

@BigBadBruce:

I would be surprised a ruling would be any different than this :

1. Troops (2Inf, 2Art) are on Midland.
2. Transports at z25 get leave, empty, to wherever they can.
3. Attack on Aleutian can’t and didn’t happen
4. None of the Allies are allowed to redo anything. It’s Allies responsability to know rules.

1)  Troops and Artillery are on Midway.

2)  Actually, the transports should be dead.  You attacked with warships, so unless you retreat before the transports die (and nothing in your round shows that they did or you wanted too)

3)  The attack cannot happen due to unavailability of the units. (IF this was a tournament game, then the attack would be allowed to happen due to Japan screwing up the map.)

4)  The Americans get a chance to replace their units due to a changed situation on the game board.  America’s income is adjusted due to new game board situations.

Here is the revised map correcting for your map screwups to be in line with how a “for fun” game should be played.

While I have the moral victory (in so much as America can choose to change their Build Placements) due to Japan being without destroyers in range of the submarines and due to my desire for where I wanted the transports, I made no changes to American placement.

The French fighter was returned to London.  You will have to wait until I am good and ready to do France’s turn before starting with Germany.  This is your own fault.  Had you just accepted the move for France instead of quibbling over it, trying to make an issue of something that was harmless, you could have gone from Italy directly into Germany.  Now, of course, you have to wait for France AND you cannot cry if France decides to make an attack on their turn.

Go for Italy.

Jenn_v_BBB_05dALL_revised due to Japan screwup.AAM

1. The troops are on the island.  You did move them slightly, since I routinely stack my units in pretty rows and a cursory look at virtually any game in the past would confirm this.  They were “jostled” roughly the equivalent as if you were to bump the board and an infantry piece fell over.  It’s not huge, but they are moved slightly.  Probably what happened is that you moved them around to see what was there. (I find it hard to see what units are where exactly, due to black numbers on black lines.  So I sometimes move a stack here and there to see the total number.  I never get it back, to the pixel, where it was, and will, as I did in SZ 26 there on the revised map, stack the units of my opponent clearly showing I moved the pieces.)

2. I never really claimed they were not on the island.  I said due to where you left them on your Japan map.  Hell, if one looks at the Round 4 Allied turn map (conveniently attached below) you will see the units stacked up prettily with the tactical bombers on the island, the artillery directly adjacent to the tactical bombers and the infantry directly adjacent (ie touching in a nice line) to the artillery.  The ships are stacked nicely as well in similar fashion. (Planes, Carriers, Battleships, Transports.)

3. You then started to pick a fight.  Drawing from this, I pointed out that by the letter of the law, you had de facto (by your actions created a new fact) that the units were on the transports thus your altering of the board created an illegal situation that made my action legal.  I agree, in spirit of the law, you cannot move my pieces and they should be on the island.  However, by the spirit of the law and the letter of the law, you specifically forgot to remove the destroyers, you cannot move into a naval battle in which defending transports are present, with surface warships and leave your ships in the sea zone without killing all enemy units, including transports with the exception of submarines that submerge.  Fighters/Bombers could attack and retreat before killing the transports and then you could NCM surface ships in, but you attacked with the surface ships, so you totally “screwed the pooch” so to speak, when you failed to remove the transports to begin with.  This goes counter to your argument that my maps always have mistakes and your maps never do, thus, I have successfully established that we are both humans and thus, we both make mistakes.  Therefore, your horse is no taller than mine so you should probably get off it like I have.

4. Correct. I never said they were in the sea zone.  I never said the Aleutians attack was supposed to happen.  I said if you want to go by the letter of the law, your screwup would have caused the attack on the Aluetians to be deemed legal since you moved the American pieces and you left the transports in SZ 26 and thus, if I was coming into the game without seeing any other action but Japan 5’s last map, I would say the units were on the transports, because the “List Units” command has them in SZ 26.  It was in warning that your argument is on very shaky ground and you might want more than a little coincidence here or there before making wild accusations of cheating.

5. To flip flop, one must first flip, then one must flop.  You have had more flip flops so far.  First you are purposely making mistakes on the maps, then you are saying I am cheating (two mutually exclusive acts) then you are saying I make one argument then you are saying I made the other.  My argument has been consistent this whole time:

A)  This is a for fun game and you should not be posting maps you KNOW have inaccuracies on them in hopes of tricking your opponent.  Especially since you know your opponent is so busy you have to post reminders to get a round.

B)  If you want to be a sea lawyer, then your argument is invalid and the act (regardless of the fact we both know couldnt have happened) was legal.  It was your map that had the units in the ocean next to the transports.  It was your map that failed to follow the rules and remove the transports.  My mistake was using your map and assuming you were playing honestly with intent to play a game for fun, not to try and trick your opponent into making an honest mistake.  I’m 100% sure Dezrt, DM, IL and Djensen would support me in this.  I’d wager most players would say “Dude, you cannot make mistakes on the game board, on purpose, and then complain when your opponent assumes that is an accurate game board.”  If we have the game on the table and I leave to use the rest room.  Then, while I am gone, you slip a chip under a stack of my units turning it from 5 infantry to 6 infantry, you cannot then complain if I use the six infantry to attack something saying there are really only 5 infantry there.   In reality, that is cheating on your part, not your opponents.

C)  I have gone back and retroactively made the changes to be legal in the spirit of the game, where we both know the units were supposed to be, even though you purposely misaligned the units in hopes of getting me to cheat.  I also went in and changed France back, but this really hurts you a lot more than it hurts me, since now you don’t have a 100% surety of where that fighter will be and now you have to wait until I get around to posting a French move to find out.  The longer I wait, the higher the chances of you screwing up Germany because you forgot what you were going to do.

@BigBadBruce:

@Cmdr:

America’s income is adjusted due to new game board situations.

I deducted 5IPC, you forgot to do… surely not on purpose.

Correct.  I am making the adjustment to the American NO and uploading a map without it.

I also forgot to increase England to 18 IPC (they have 9 convoy damage, not 10) and India to 21 IPC (up from the 17 they had.)  Australia’s income was fine.

Jenn_v_BBB_05dALL_revised due to Japan screwup.AAM