G40 Alpha 2 carry on game for fun

@BigBadBruce:

I would be surprised a ruling would be any different than this :

1. Troops (2Inf, 2Art) are on Midland.
2. Transports at z25 get leave, empty, to wherever they can.
3. Attack on Aleutian can’t and didn’t happen
4. None of the Allies are allowed to redo anything. It’s Allies responsability to know rules.

1)  Troops and Artillery are on Midway.

2)  Actually, the transports should be dead.  You attacked with warships, so unless you retreat before the transports die (and nothing in your round shows that they did or you wanted too)

3)  The attack cannot happen due to unavailability of the units. (IF this was a tournament game, then the attack would be allowed to happen due to Japan screwing up the map.)

4)  The Americans get a chance to replace their units due to a changed situation on the game board.  America’s income is adjusted due to new game board situations.

Here is the revised map correcting for your map screwups to be in line with how a “for fun” game should be played.

While I have the moral victory (in so much as America can choose to change their Build Placements) due to Japan being without destroyers in range of the submarines and due to my desire for where I wanted the transports, I made no changes to American placement.

The French fighter was returned to London.  You will have to wait until I am good and ready to do France’s turn before starting with Germany.  This is your own fault.  Had you just accepted the move for France instead of quibbling over it, trying to make an issue of something that was harmless, you could have gone from Italy directly into Germany.  Now, of course, you have to wait for France AND you cannot cry if France decides to make an attack on their turn.

Go for Italy.

Jenn_v_BBB_05dALL_revised due to Japan screwup.AAM

1. The troops are on the island.  You did move them slightly, since I routinely stack my units in pretty rows and a cursory look at virtually any game in the past would confirm this.  They were “jostled” roughly the equivalent as if you were to bump the board and an infantry piece fell over.  It’s not huge, but they are moved slightly.  Probably what happened is that you moved them around to see what was there. (I find it hard to see what units are where exactly, due to black numbers on black lines.  So I sometimes move a stack here and there to see the total number.  I never get it back, to the pixel, where it was, and will, as I did in SZ 26 there on the revised map, stack the units of my opponent clearly showing I moved the pieces.)

2. I never really claimed they were not on the island.  I said due to where you left them on your Japan map.  Hell, if one looks at the Round 4 Allied turn map (conveniently attached below) you will see the units stacked up prettily with the tactical bombers on the island, the artillery directly adjacent to the tactical bombers and the infantry directly adjacent (ie touching in a nice line) to the artillery.  The ships are stacked nicely as well in similar fashion. (Planes, Carriers, Battleships, Transports.)

3. You then started to pick a fight.  Drawing from this, I pointed out that by the letter of the law, you had de facto (by your actions created a new fact) that the units were on the transports thus your altering of the board created an illegal situation that made my action legal.  I agree, in spirit of the law, you cannot move my pieces and they should be on the island.  However, by the spirit of the law and the letter of the law, you specifically forgot to remove the destroyers, you cannot move into a naval battle in which defending transports are present, with surface warships and leave your ships in the sea zone without killing all enemy units, including transports with the exception of submarines that submerge.  Fighters/Bombers could attack and retreat before killing the transports and then you could NCM surface ships in, but you attacked with the surface ships, so you totally “screwed the pooch” so to speak, when you failed to remove the transports to begin with.  This goes counter to your argument that my maps always have mistakes and your maps never do, thus, I have successfully established that we are both humans and thus, we both make mistakes.  Therefore, your horse is no taller than mine so you should probably get off it like I have.

4. Correct. I never said they were in the sea zone.  I never said the Aleutians attack was supposed to happen.  I said if you want to go by the letter of the law, your screwup would have caused the attack on the Aluetians to be deemed legal since you moved the American pieces and you left the transports in SZ 26 and thus, if I was coming into the game without seeing any other action but Japan 5’s last map, I would say the units were on the transports, because the “List Units” command has them in SZ 26.  It was in warning that your argument is on very shaky ground and you might want more than a little coincidence here or there before making wild accusations of cheating.

5. To flip flop, one must first flip, then one must flop.  You have had more flip flops so far.  First you are purposely making mistakes on the maps, then you are saying I am cheating (two mutually exclusive acts) then you are saying I make one argument then you are saying I made the other.  My argument has been consistent this whole time:

A)  This is a for fun game and you should not be posting maps you KNOW have inaccuracies on them in hopes of tricking your opponent.  Especially since you know your opponent is so busy you have to post reminders to get a round.

B)  If you want to be a sea lawyer, then your argument is invalid and the act (regardless of the fact we both know couldnt have happened) was legal.  It was your map that had the units in the ocean next to the transports.  It was your map that failed to follow the rules and remove the transports.  My mistake was using your map and assuming you were playing honestly with intent to play a game for fun, not to try and trick your opponent into making an honest mistake.  I’m 100% sure Dezrt, DM, IL and Djensen would support me in this.  I’d wager most players would say “Dude, you cannot make mistakes on the game board, on purpose, and then complain when your opponent assumes that is an accurate game board.”  If we have the game on the table and I leave to use the rest room.  Then, while I am gone, you slip a chip under a stack of my units turning it from 5 infantry to 6 infantry, you cannot then complain if I use the six infantry to attack something saying there are really only 5 infantry there.   In reality, that is cheating on your part, not your opponents.

C)  I have gone back and retroactively made the changes to be legal in the spirit of the game, where we both know the units were supposed to be, even though you purposely misaligned the units in hopes of getting me to cheat.  I also went in and changed France back, but this really hurts you a lot more than it hurts me, since now you don’t have a 100% surety of where that fighter will be and now you have to wait until I get around to posting a French move to find out.  The longer I wait, the higher the chances of you screwing up Germany because you forgot what you were going to do.

@BigBadBruce:

@Cmdr:

America’s income is adjusted due to new game board situations.

I deducted 5IPC, you forgot to do… surely not on purpose.

Correct.  I am making the adjustment to the American NO and uploading a map without it.

I also forgot to increase England to 18 IPC (they have 9 convoy damage, not 10) and India to 21 IPC (up from the 17 they had.)  Australia’s income was fine.

Jenn_v_BBB_05dALL_revised due to Japan screwup.AAM

The map of Allies 4 demonstrating the units being stacked on Midway/SZ 26.

Jenn_v_BBB_04dALL.AAM

@BigBadBruce:

@BigBadBruce:

Also, as per tourney rules, since you screwed up with Anzac and collected only 17IPC, it’s your bad.

Rather Calcutta, not Anzac.

Yes, but we’re fixing Japan’s mistakes anyway, so we’ll fix India’s mistake as well.

You have 6 dmg to England, 2 dmg to Scotland, 2 dmg to Brazil, 1 Dmg to Nigeria = 11 DMG.  (I’m sure you can fix it.  The map does not auto calculate for Germany’s bonus.)
India has 21 due to territories. (If we can fix Japan’s map, we can fix India’s income.  Pick one, either the Aleutians happened because your map was wrong, or India’s income is corrected since we corrected Japan’s turn.  You cannot have it both ways.)
Australia, as you pointed out, is correct at 14 IPC.

Go with Italy.  I’ll assume if the cash board has India at 21 IPC you went with the Corrections to Japan’s map and accordingly corrected India’s income.  (I am MUCH nicer than Gargantua, he would have forced you do redo all of Japan and then done all the allies from scratch.  It’s my second biggest beef with him, my first is his rolling of my attack dice for me.)  If you don’t want to correct India’s income, I will assume you are conceding that the Americans move (while technically illegal due to where we know the units should have been, was done correctly due to where you left the units on Japan’s turn.)  Either the map is right and we use it, or the map is wrong and we fix it.  I think that’s fair.

Tournament rules allow a player to make corrections up to when the next player starts his next turn.  You have not started Italy, therefore, I can fix India per the tournament rules that govern this game (it is a continuation of a tournament game.)

I am being magnaminous in so much as not holding you accountable for your mistakes with Japan’s board.  It was you, not I, who moved the American units into the Ocean.  It was you, not I, who forgot to delete the American transports.  By all rights, those transports and units were in SZ 26 according to your last map, and thus, available to be used.  We all know what you MEANT to have done, and I am being very nice, I think, in rewinding the situation and correcting it without making any other adjustments.   For one, you could not legally have your warships in SZ 26 because you would have had to retreat from the undefended transports to have them survive.  (So you cheated, my Mantlefan’s absurd definition that no one in the English speaking world actually uses.)

I have attached a final map.  Either give up or go with Italy.  I’m not discussing this further.  I made my ruling and have not altered from it this whole time.  I have shown how my ruling is in accordance of the spirit of the rules and how much more of a prick I could be if I went with the letter of the rules.  I think you see what I mentioned as the legal course as a flip-flop, despite it only being used to demonstrate how easy I am letting you off on your mistakes regarding the map.

This is your last warning, please stop trying to twist every little situation into some whacked out distortion of what was really said in your effort to one-up me.  Was there a mistake?  Yes.  Japan made HUGE mistakes which in turn lead the Americans to making a mistake.  Am I holding you to them?  No.  Have I ever held you to them?  No.

Jenn_v_BBB_05dALL_zFINAL.AAM

@BigBadBruce:

I am MUCH nicer than Gargantua, he would have forced you do redo all of Japan and then done all the allies from scratch.

True, you are nicer the way you write your posts… but from what I know about Gargantua, he admits when (and if) he’s wrong. That’s the difference.

And since you call on what he would say… I invite him to answer for himself!!

He can’t.  He went and pissed off IL so IL had him banned.  I have never banned anyone and hope never too ban anyone.

I also admitted the specific action was wrong, you just chose to ignore it.  The closest you have gotten to admitting you were wrong was in stating at the outset of the argument that you purposely made mistakes on the map.

You must apply all hits regardless of your intention to retreat or not.  You cannot simply choose not to hit the transports.  You also cannot move your warships in during combat move and then decide not to attack the transports there if you are attacking other warships.

USA did not attack Aleutians (even though you made it a legal move by screwing up the board).  France was returned (even though allowing yourself the convenience was in your best interests.)  Calcutta income can be fixed, you never did Italy, thus, but tournament rules, it is legal to fix their income.

Are you going or not?

You are making issues that do not exist.

YOU moved the pieces then YOU complained I moved them legally after that.  I did go back and fix it to how I had originally intended them to be.

I gave you a gift and did France, you bitched about it, so I moved them back.

The rules specifically say you can repair issues that you find incorrect within a time frame.

Map inconsistencies are considered permanent upon your next action. (ie, if Japan forgot to update their money from 31 IPC to 45 IPC and the player bought units for Italy, then Japan only has 31 IPC to spend on their next turn.)  This rule is to protect your opponents.  It is often difficult for players to adequatly account for incorrect issues on the map.  Your errors cannot help you.  If you forget to switch a battleship to damaged, your opponent does not have to fire twice to sink it if he remembers it is damaged.

Calcutta’s income collection happened before Russia’s next turn.  Per the rules correcting the money is legal.  Per the rules, correcting the American units AFTER YOU SCREWED THEM UP is also legal.  Notice the written example in the text is for Italy being corrected before Japan’s turn.  It does not say Germany’s turn because that is a consecutive nation, for all intents and purposes.  Everyone else seems to understand this BUT YOU.

Yes, per the rules France has to wait.

I have not argued against anything here.  You are side tracking, attempting to make issues up that do not exist.  Trying every possible thing you can do EXCEPT PLAYING YOUR TURN WITH THE MAP PROVIDED.    I think this is because you have realized you cannot win, so instead of actually playing you are hoping you can piss me off to the point I quit playing, then you can pretend to be this wizard as you did with the American Pac-Strat game where you came up with all this bullshit until I just stopped playing with you.

Play.  Quit.  I don’t care really.  But whatever the case, you are in violation of the Turns until such time as you post Italy’s round.  Any more game delays will result in your forfeit - per tournament rules.

@BigBadBruce:

@Cmdr:

YOU moved the pieces then YOU complained I moved them legally after that.  I did go back and fix it to how I had originally intended them to be.

But what are you talking about??
What pieces I moved? I never complained as such. It’s all in your mind Jenn…

You moved the infantry and artillery from where I left them.  You failed to remove the transports as you were required to do.

If you had opened the map, you’d see the units put back on Midway, the transports removed (as they should have been), the Japanese infantry and flag on the Aleutians, the money column fixed and the French fighter back in London. (This last I think you should have just left instead of trying to make an issue out of it.  Now you have to wait for France and I’m of the mindset to wait for the full 71.5 hours just in hopes of you losing your train of thought now, and only because instead of saying “hey, you said you had to wait for France, but that’s cool, I’ll just go ahead with Germany and thanks for helping me out there.”

Or just ignoring it and proceeding with Germany without thanking me for making it easier for you to keep your train of thought by allowing Germany to go consecutively after Italy.

Maybe it’s just me.  I always thought it was a blessing when my opponents said “hey, I went ahead and moved the French units for you.”  If I had to attack something with Italy and there was a French unit there, I would make note of the fact that my opponent had to move his French guy on his turn and then proceeded as if it was not on the territory.  If I lost, then the unit could be stuck there, since it was declared!  (In other words, if you attacked Gibraltar and got a miracle managing to get 4 transports, no planes and a few shore bomardments to kill off 4 ground units and 8 fighters by some wild stretch of the dice, then the French fighter might have been forced to move elsewhere.)