There is another way to win…

@Omega1759:

Hmm, wait, what happens if Haiwai does not scramble and if the US moves everything to Haiwai?

The Japanese fleet would be in a tough spot. No way of going back to Japan and the US fleet + planes can catch you whenever you decide to go. I guess you can consolidate in the Carolines, but the ships off the Phillipines are needed to help take India

That is why I said to take the tactical bomber, then the fighters as casualties first, so you had FULL warships and a full compliment of planes.  I’ve yet to see America counter attack that, even with the fighters from Hawaii not scrambling.

I have done similar to the minimal invasion of SZ 26.  I have skipped Philippines, SZ 35 as well.  I just have not had success with them yet.  It always ended up that America trounced the Pacific, just earlier than normal.  Of course, we are talking Alpha 2 when I last did this, but there isn’t THAT much different in Alpha 3…one less NO for America on an almost permanent basis, but that’s not going to make up for the 20-40 extra IPC you give them for a pre-emptive attack, IMHO.  I did get lucky in that one game and caught my opponent with his pants down, taking out all of Australia early (round 4 I was done) and moving to SZ 39.  Took America a while to recover since i had the Aluetians, Midway, Wake, Hawaii, Jonah and all the original Australian territories eventually.

I’m not talking about leaving a bunch in 26. I’m saying attacking 26 with minimal fleet, 1 sub, 2 DD, 2 tac and 2 fighters. The carriers + a certain number of ships (at least 1 BB) stay back in 31. I want to attack the Phillipines, so there is no way I’m going in full throttle in 26!

The issue is what do you do if us moves everything in 26 on US1…

You can go off to carolinas, but you leave Japan open… Not good for ferrying troops on the mainland

@Cmdr:

@Omega1759:

Hmm, wait, what happens if Haiwai does not scramble and if the US moves everything to Haiwai?

The Japanese fleet would be in a tough spot. No way of going back to Japan and the US fleet + planes can catch you whenever you decide to go. I guess you can consolidate in the Carolines, but the ships off the Phillipines are needed to help take India

That is why I said to take the tactical bomber, then the fighters as casualties first, so you had FULL warships and a full compliment of planes.  I’ve yet to see America counter attack that, even with the fighters from Hawaii not scrambling.

I have done similar to the minimal invasion of SZ 26.  I have skipped Philippines, SZ 35 as well.  I just have not had success with them yet.  It always ended up that America trounced the Pacific, just earlier than normal.  Of course, we are talking Alpha 2 when I last did this, but there isn’t THAT much different in Alpha 3…one less NO for America on an almost permanent basis, but that’s not going to make up for the 20-40 extra IPC you give them for a pre-emptive attack, IMHO.  I did get lucky in that one game and caught my opponent with his pants down, taking out all of Australia early (round 4 I was done) and moving to SZ 39.  Took America a while to recover since i had the Aluetians, Midway, Wake, Hawaii, Jonah and all the original Australian territories eventually.

Yes, you are correct, full throtle (as you put it) SZ 26 requires the warships that cannot get there on Round 1, go to SZ 6 and go there on Round 2.

Shadow, looking forward to get your thoughts on what to do if US does not scramble 26 and moves everything to 26.

Also curious is the transport in Borneo is escorted or not. A lone Indian destroyer could take care of it (I don’t like losing transports, but at least that would be one dead destroyer)

@Omega1759:

Shadow, looking forward to get your thoughts on what to do if US does not scramble 26 and moves everything to 26.

Also curious is the transport in Borneo is escorted or not. A lone Indian destroyer could take care of it (I don’t like losing transports, but at least that would be one dead destroyer)

Yes the Borneo TRN is unescorted.  The British can send a DD or CA there to take it out if they choose to, but it’s worth it, and has already paid for itself.

If the Americans send full fleet to Hawaii and full defense the most they have is 5 FTR, 1 TAC, 1 CV, 1 BB, CA, 1 DD.  You can attack them on J2 with 4 TAC, 4 FTR, 1 BB, 2 CV, 1 STR, possibly a DD depending on your J1 choices in that battle (send 1 DD or two), and I’m thinking maybe J1 should be 2 TRN, 2 SUB just for this purpose, so you can also send in two SUB.  Japan is 92% to win without the 2 SUB and average 72 losses - and 99% to win with 49 losses with the two SUB.  If USA does this, then you have the threat of your two TRN there with 2 ART, 2 INF and attack.  USA probably won’t want to make this move since Japan can pounce.  If USA DOES make this move…do you capture Hawaii or keep the gameplan and go south to India J4?  Can Japan still capture India J4 with only 2-3 TRN…they’d need a LOT of aircraft on FIC at the end of J3.  Perhaps J2 if they planned to take Hawaii they could build 4 FTR to be in position for J3 FIC --> J4 India.  Hmm…

@shadowguidex:

@Omega1759:

Shadow, looking forward to get your thoughts on what to do if US does not scramble 26 and moves everything to 26.

Also curious is the transport in Borneo is escorted or not. A lone Indian destroyer could take care of it (I don’t like losing transports, but at least that would be one dead destroyer)

Yes the Borneo TRN is unescorted.  The British can send a DD or CA there to take it out if they choose to, but it’s worth it, and has already paid for itself.

If the Americans send full fleet to Hawaii and full defense the most they have is 5 FTR, 1 TAC, 1 CV, 1 BB, CA, 1 DD.  You can attack them on J2 with 4 TAC, 4 FTR, 1 BB, 2 CV, 1 STR, possibly a DD depending on your J1 choices in that battle (send 1 DD or two), and I’m thinking maybe J1 should be 2 TRN, 2 SUB just for this purpose, so you can also send in two SUB.  Japan is 92% to win without the 2 SUB and average 72 losses - and 99% to win with 49 losses with the two SUB.  If USA does this, then you have the threat of your two TRN there with 2 ART, 2 INF and attack.  USA probably won’t want to make this move since Japan can pounce.  If USA DOES make this move…do you capture Hawaii or keep the gameplan and go south to India J4?  Can Japan still capture India J4 with only 2-3 TRN…they’d need a LOT of aircraft on FIC at the end of J3.  Perhaps J2 if they planned to take Hawaii they could build 4 FTR to be in position for J3 FIC --> J4 India.  Hmm…

Must be missing something, can only bring in 2 Tac and 2 fighters to bear on the attack?!

Must be missing something, can only bring in 2 Tac and 2 fighters to bear on the attack?!

You have the four planes on the CVs at Wake Island that will land on Marshall Islands, and four new planes leaving Japan/Korea landing on the CVs.  8 Total.

@shadowguidex:

Must be missing something, can only bring in 2 Tac and 2 fighters to bear on the attack?!

You have the four planes on the CVs at Wake Island that will land on Marshall Islands, and four new planes leaving Japan/Korea landing on the CVs.  8 Total.

The 2 subs are key for this… Would be worthwhile to take Hawai then, if they do make the move (they would probably keep some planes to defend the homeland)

Can you call off the amphibious assault depending on what the US player decides to keep on the mainland?

India should be weak enough at that point to not be a huge issue yet (if Japan can cause enough damage to the US fleet to be quiet for a while!)

You also need to watch for a counterattack following the J2 hit on 26… If the US does not scramble their planes and built lots of subs on US1, may be an issue. However, there is a good chance a US player would buy a carrier, which helps a lot.

There is a good chance that USA would have built a destroyer and possibly more for the East Coast to deal with German subs already on their coast, as well as the stack of new subs two turns away (by USA2 they are one turn away).  USA is also unlikely to send all their forces to Hawaii when Germany has subs parked off Washington DC, more subs to come, and transports on the horizon as well….remember, Germany is playing like a classic Sealion attack until G2, modified with two Subs off Washington.

@shadowguidex:

There is a good chance that USA would have built a destroyer and possibly more for the East Coast to deal with German subs already on their coast, as well as the stack of new subs two turns away (by USA2 they are one turn away).  USA is also unlikely to send all their forces to Hawaii when Germany has subs parked off Washington DC, more subs to come, and transports on the horizon as well….remember, Germany is playing like a classic Sealion attack until G2, modified with two Subs off Washington.

If you send 2 subs after the east cost, will be at the expense of sinking the UK fleet in 106 and 110.

This also reveals your intentions to Russia, who could well attack Japan instead of pulling back from the coast…

At this point, one needs to check what the US bought, the ideal Japan purchase would be 2 subs and 2 transport, or maybe 3 subs and 1 transport.

I agree though Germany should put some pressure on the US with continous naval builds.

Will all this work you think?

@Omega1759:

@shadowguidex:

There is a good chance that USA would have built a destroyer and possibly more for the East Coast to deal with German subs already on their coast, as well as the stack of new subs two turns away (by USA2 they are one turn away).  USA is also unlikely to send all their forces to Hawaii when Germany has subs parked off Washington DC, more subs to come, and transports on the horizon as well….remember, Germany is playing like a classic Sealion attack until G2, modified with two Subs off Washington.

If you send 2 subs after the east cost, will be at the expense of sinking the UK fleet in 106 and 110.

This also reveals your intentions to Russia, who could well attack Japan instead of pulling back from the coast…

At this point, one needs to check what the US bought, the ideal Japan purchase would be 2 subs and 2 transport, or maybe 3 subs and 1 transport.

I agree though Germany should put some pressure on the US with continous naval builds.

Will all this work you think?

I’ve said this like three times now, you CANNOT get TWO submarines to SZ 101 on Germany 1!  You CAN get the Submarine from SZ 103 and that is it.  So essentially you are trading the attack on the Cruiser in SZ 91 for an attack on the Cruiser in SZ 101. (And starting a war.)

There is a British Destroyer in SZ 106 which blocks the paths of the submarine in SZ 117

I’ve said this like three times now, you CANNOT get TWO submarines to SZ 101 on Germany 1!  You CAN get the Submarine from SZ 103 and that is it.  So essentially you are trading the attack on the Cruiser in SZ 91 for an attack on the Cruiser in SZ 101. (And starting a war.)

There is a British Destroyer in SZ 106 which blocks the paths of the submarine in SZ 117

You kill the British DD with two subs, and non-combat move your sub to USA.  Yes it’s tru if you only use combat movement you cannot accomplish the task.

@Gargantua:

You can still 1v1 the cruiser…

or DOW to knock them down for $3! lol.

Yeah SUB vs. CA is always a 50/50 battle, believe it or not.

@shadowguidex:

I’ve said this like three times now, you CANNOT get TWO submarines to SZ 101 on Germany 1!  You CAN get the Submarine from SZ 103 and that is it.  So essentially you are trading the attack on the Cruiser in SZ 91 for an attack on the Cruiser in SZ 101. (And starting a war.)

There is a British Destroyer in SZ 106 which blocks the paths of the submarine in SZ 117

You kill the British DD with two subs, and non-combat move your sub to USA.  Yes it’s tru if you only use combat movement you cannot accomplish the task.

Then you don’t do any convoy damage to the United States.  They just don’t declare war on you.  (I am pretty sure if you declare on them, you cannot non-combat move your submarines into their hostile sea zone.)

@Cmdr:

@shadowguidex:

I’ve said this like three times now, you CANNOT get TWO submarines to SZ 101 on Germany 1!  You CAN get the Submarine from SZ 103 and that is it.  So essentially you are trading the attack on the Cruiser in SZ 91 for an attack on the Cruiser in SZ 101. (And starting a war.)

There is a British Destroyer in SZ 106 which blocks the paths of the submarine in SZ 117

You kill the British DD with two subs, and non-combat move your sub to USA.  Yes it’s tru if you only use combat movement you cannot accomplish the task.

Then you don’t do any convoy damage to the United States.  They just don’t declare war on you.  (I am pretty sure if you declare on them, you cannot non-combat move your submarines into their hostile sea zone.)

Submarines can noncombat move into or through a seazone, regardless of whether the seazone is hostile or friendly, but will STOP movement as soon as they enter a seazone with an enemy destroyer.

Please refer to page 30 of the Pac1940 rules for specific text:
Treat Hostile Sea Zones as Friendly: A submarine can move through a sea zone that contains enemy units, either in combat or noncombat movement. However, if a submarine enters a sea zone containing an enemy destroyer, it must end its movement there. If it ends its combat move in a hostile sea zone, combat will occur.

OK, so I guess this needs to be spelled out completely so there is no ambiguity.

The sub from z103 attacks the American Cruiser at z101.
The subs from z108 and z118 attack the British Destroyer at z106

Assuming the British Destroyer has been destroyed, the sub from z117 goes to z101.
Yes, the Sub from z117 can enter z101 on non-combat movement even if the CA is still there.

Good grief people, getting caught up in the minutia of all these is aggravating - I don’t posit ideas that cannot occur, they are all based upon reality, trust me.  I tend to avoid posting forum strategies precisely because we get sidetracked with proving rules and movement mechanics which are totally legal, but require imagination.