@shadowhawk but then you would need to utilize more aircraft which you couldn’t use against the British navy and you would be more likely to lose more higher valuable units (mechs suck to lose more than infantry for example)
What happens if you SAVE your money G1?
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@Young:
No, but I assume that strategy won’t help protect your ships when you send them to SZ#112 during G1.
That, in a nutshell, is the issue now isn’t it? One essentially spends all of G1 on navy to protect that fleet which negates being able to save it, does it not?
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@Young:
No, but I assume that strategy won’t help protect your ships when you send them to SZ#112 during G1.
This. If you’re going to save and test UK’s mettle, best to build one Submarine and save 24 IPCs. 1 SUB, 1 CA, 3 FTR, and a damaged BB should deter UK from attacking your ships. If they do, then you’ll likely take out some FTR making Sealion all that much easier. If they don’t attack you have the option on G2 of going Barbarossa or Sealion then, based upon UKs purchases.
I like this route better than the CV, DD, SUB purchase and much better than the CV, 2 TRN purchase.
Very interesting idea, I am going to play test this and see if it is viable. I like the idea of holding off spending G1 for a G3 sealion… When you do the standard G1 fleet buy, it forces the UK to pull back from the Med (which helps Italy), but it telegraphs what you are going to do… at this point, most people that I play, see the fleet build on G1 and buy 100% defense for the UK.
Saving the majority of the money on G1 may keep the UK off balance and make sea lion more viable… perhaps the UK player builds a factory in Africa (just throwing that out there).
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I’d say you lose the ability to dictate the tempo and initiative in the Atlantic on G1.
I’d say you gain the ability to react in force and retake the initiative in a big way on G2.
It’s a very interesting question!
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It’s really just a way for Germany to react to UK’s moves, instead of the other way around. If you play against a UK player who has seen Sea Lion, and seen Barbarossa, and know the difference, then a single sub purchase can be pretty damn confusing.
On G2 Germany can easily build any and all necessary units for a Sealion attack at either Germany or West Germany, both are in range, as is Normandy.
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It’s really just a way for Germany to react to UK’s moves, instead of the other way around. If you play against a UK player who has seen Sea Lion, and seen Barbarossa, and know the difference, then a single sub purchase can be pretty damn confusing.
On G2 Germany can easily build any and all necessary units for a Sealion attack at either Germany or West Germany, both are in range, as is Normandy.
West Germany (SZ#112) is the only position that gives you the option to invade from Within SZ#110 and SZ#109. If I see someone launching Sealion from SZ#113, it’s an easy block with the British Mediteranian fleet into SZ#110
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@Young:
West Germany (SZ#112) is the only position that gives you the option to invade from Within SZ#110 and SZ#109. If I see someone launching Sealion from SZ#113, it’s an easy block with the British Mediteranian fleet into SZ#110
Well if they have a fleet in range that could/would clearly halt a Sealion, then you wouldn’t build for Sealion, hence the money you saved can go for other things…this is the entire purpose for this conversation, the flexibility and leverage that Germany can have by employing this maneuver. Remember, you only Sealion if conditions are ripe for it.
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Ere, I get what you are saying with the whole “stealth Sea Lion” angle and all, but, speaking for myself of course, I can say I always blow the cash on England for the first two rounds regardless of what Germany buys or does not buy. I can always use the material later for D-Day landings if they are not used in homeland defense.
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UK1, if they attack the fleet at 112, could send probably 1 BB, 1 CA, 1 DD for fleet. They could also send 3 FTR. This force would be against Germany’s 1 BB, 1 SUB, 1 CA, 3 FTR.
This sorta dares UK, and the fight is very balanced. Go ahead and attack with UK there, it’s fine. UK can either build 9 INF, or some fleet, but not both. That small Med. fleet is easily beatable by the Luftwaffe if they send it there, and remember Germany has 92-94 IPCs on G2 to build whatever the like. If UK combines their fleet without attacking, then SZ112 is safe anyway. If UK built INF, then you don’t need to build ships (perhaps 1 DD in case they try to defend with Subs). If UK builds ships, then you don’t need to build as many TRN to take UK. If they royally mess up and build some other strange scheme, then Germany is in luck and can easily Sealion on G3 without having to waste 2 rounds on naval builds. I think it’s pure upside for Germany…instead of always building the fleet and the huge number of transports, you build what you need given UK’s actions, and spend the rest on Russia. Conversely, if you don’t feel like attacking UK, this maneuver can still force UK to build 9 INF on UK1 without you investing in any fleet G1.
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@Cmdr:
Ere, I get what you are saying with the whole “stealth Sea Lion” angle and all, but, speaking for myself of course, I can say I always blow the cash on England for the first two rounds regardless of what Germany buys or does not buy. I can always use the material later for D-Day landings if they are not used in homeland defense.
I’m with you there. I think UK’s best purchase by far is 9 INF on UK1. It should totally eliminate the worry about a surprise Sea Lion anywhere in the game, and can thwart an actual Sealion well too (G3/G4). Always watch out for Germany inexplicably saving large sums of money, it might flag a surprise Sealion. I’ve seen it done as late as round 9.
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Shadow, why not move the puny British fleet in SZ 98 out and get it to SZ 39? (Not the aircraft, the fleet)
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If the Britsh fleet from the Mediterranean was in SZ#110 by the end of UK2, and the German fleet with all her transports were in SZ#113. Sealion will not happen (to much committed to the sea battle to get good odds in London). However, If the German fleet is in SZ#112, the British would have to divide her fleet in order to block 2 SZs, making Sealion more possible. Therefore, saving your G1 income for the best Sealion strategy is pointless because you will already be placing the 10 unit maximum in SZ#112 when you buy and place 10 transports G2. Unless there is a better Sealion out there that I don’t know about.
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Excellent point on the need to stage for sealion out of sz 112.
By holding Germ’s money the first turn you’re really not helping the Axis cause. Forcing UK’s build to be all inf in London does that with the naval build. Then G2 you’re still going to run into production problems with 10 units in Wgerm and 10 in Germ.
I suppose if you are feeling cocky and want to throw a twist in the game, this might be viable…but I wouldn’t consider it’s win probability to be high enough to use regularly.
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There are still more questions…
what happens if you JUST build the acc? And save 14? or some other combination like the sub? Does that provide you with any extra advantage?
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Can you please explain, why you should build an Aircraft Carrier in G1 when threatening a sea-lion?
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Invasions fleets need to have a defensive function - their job is to protect the transports from opposing fleets.
With Germany’s large starting air power, a Carrier purchase is the fastest and cheapest way to maximize its fleets survivability.
It makes the German fleet indestructable against whatever UK may throw at it. As UK cannot protect itself by harming Germany’s transports, it instead must protect itself by purchasing infantry in London. -
I see! Good explanation. Thank you!
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There are still more questions…
what happens if you JUST build the acc? And save 14? or some other combination like the sub? Does that provide you with any extra advantage?
German income for G2 is spoken for with 10 transports, therefore, the only reason I would save $14 is for a tac bomber and an infantry, but that won’t help me as much as a sub and destroyer when I will need to bust through a SZ during the invasion.
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On G2 if you DO decide to go Sea Lion it must be staged in SZ 112 to prevent blocking by the British Navy; HOWEVER, the German Player can build additional attack ships in SZ 113 on G2 which can be used to assist in Sea Lion as well… if 112 is occupied by the German fleet, any ships that you build in 113 can also participate in the invasion due to there being now way to block them.
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Young Grasshopper…again, maybe you didn’t understand the point of this idea…this isn’t a Sealion strategy where you have to build the exact same units you’ve always done…it’s not a Sealion strategy at all…it’s a flexible idea that allows you to react with Germany in response to allied moves rather than the other way around. If UK does maximum protect against Sealion then don’t spend the money to commit to Sealion, it’s that simple. Why are you trying to gameplan around a maximum Sealion protect from UK, that’s totally against the point of this idea…you only Sealion if UK doesn’t max protect.
If UK pulls their ships out of the Med giving up the NO to Italy when Germany hasn’t built much fleet, then it’s win-win…Italy can then take control of Gibraltar easily and Germany can gear up for Barbarossa and didn’t waste money on a CV that isn’t necessary.
Also, in case you do have a ripe situation for Sealion (maybe Taranto raid occured, or Italy sinks the Med fleet) and UK didn’t build 9 INF, then you might not even need 10 TRN to take control of UK, maybe only 4, 2, or 7, or maybe UK totally botched and you only need your initial TRN.
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A great Axis and Allies general once said - when facing the National Advantage “Joint Strike” in revised.
“There is no greater threat to German security than the joint strike. As the allies save thier pennies, the Germans are FORCED to defend against any logistically plausible attack. **It’s like fighting invisible units, with a combined IPC value that can morph into whatever is needed.**”
This is not a Sea-Lion or Barbarossa strategy, this is a “What holes can I poke in my opponents defense after his build” strategy.
It works JUST aswell against the Russians, as it does the British. And for the Record, the only person who is going to suffer from the “Only build 10 units” Are the allies….
Germany can build in WGR, and GER - 20 units, that can if required, be placed in Sz113 and Sz112, and still make it to England.
The British if they don’t build 10 men, are facing some serious challenges, and you haven’t locked in your entire german purchase into Navy. The Russians are also in trouble if they don’t play Leningrad correctly.
More thoughts everyone… please.
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