The Missing Mechanized Unit: Assault Guns

Thanks.
Good idea, it goes a little further.

@knp7765:

Tank destroyers and self propelled guns usually will have the same values for attack, defense, movement and cost. The difference will be in their respective special abilities:
Self Propelled Guns can boost Infantry & Mechanized Infantry attack factor to 2 and can blitz when paired with a Mechanized Infantry unit.
Tank Destroyers do not boost other units, but on a roll of 1 they can target enemy armor units.

However, some will put SPGs at A 2 D 2 M 2 Cost 5. Cost is one more than regular artillery for extra movement.
and Tank Destroyers at A 2 D 3 M 2 Cost 6. Cost is one more than SPGs for higher defense and targeting ability.

Is the blitz capacity historical?
I have the impression it should be left to Tanks only.
So it becomes: SPG can blitz if paired with a Tank.
Are you sure that Tank Destroyers should be put at 6?

A2D3M2C5? No blitz by itself, can only blitz if paired with a Tank, no other pairing bonus, but the “1” vs Armored units (Tank, SPG or TD).
The last capacity is useful only when enemy’s Tanks, SPGs or TDs are present.

Blitz should be possible to all M2 units when at least 1 Tank is present.
Agreeing or not?

@Baron:

@toblerone77:

HBG has enough SPA and TD unit colors to outfit all player nations with both rspective units. It’s well worth it to spend the coinage to have both of these units available. Easy-peasy-lemon-squeasy.

Just IMO visit www.historicalboardgaming.com and you can have everything you need.

Interesting set of units.
What would be stats if there is 2 units: 1 TD & 1SPG?

I have a formula I’m using that will be part of a larger project I’m working on.

If you look at all the units HBG sells, you can have both TDs and SPArt.

Once I have my project on it’s legs I may post it. Generally speaking most people using custom pieces have a wide range of uses for them. Currently I use these stats:

SPArt- A2/D2/M2/C5 supports infantry/mech+1.

TD- A3/D1/M2/C5 can blitz with tank. Supports light tank +1. US tank doctrine was to use a combination of infantry to support tanks while tanks supported infantry. This is just the way I see TDs. The TDs covered the tanks due to their heavier firepower but their thin armor made them vulnerable to enemy tanks.*

These are just the stats I’m toying with now.

Edit*

Thanks for the reply.

Should I suppose you don’t give the blitz capacity to your SPArt unit, even when paired to Mech Inf?

I’m now wondering should TD better on offence or on defence?

Is there some historical facts which could provides some rationalization?

Here is a post which can be a starting point:
@wittmann:

Stugs and TD did not have a mobile turret, so were better in a static defence and were considerably cheaper to build.
We could go on forever with this!

Or is it just a game matter of finding a specific “nest” for each variety of units?

It seems to me that any special Tank Hunter ability to destroy an armored unit on a hit or a “1” rolled will give more impact to TDs on defence since usually attacker bring fodders with bigger offensive units like Tanks.

With a TD A3D1M2 it is easy to get a simple rule such as: destroy an armored unit when getting a hit on defence, only.

Here is another reason not to give too much offensive power to TD (which seems mostly a defensive weapon according to many posters):
@Vance:

@Gargantua:

Tank Destroyers
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Cost: 5
Move:2

(Uncrustables) For every hit @1 Tank Destroyers can choose tanks, mec, or tank destroyers as their targets

Would anyone ever build mechanized infantry instead of this 2-2-2 unit for $1 more?  The hit-a-tank-on-a-1 feature is very powerful.  Just imagine Germany attacking a Soviet force of 40 infantry/artillery/mech plus a handful of tanks.  A few Stugs could cherry pick the tanks and once the 3s are gone the attacker would take fewer losses on subsequent dice rolls.  **This makes the Stug primarily a defensive weapon even when attacking, which is what it should be.  **

I think it would be better if they have the same mobility and attack/defense characteristics as mech, but have combined arms with armor instead of artillery and can blitz.  The $5 price is justified because you can cherry pick tanks.  That would make it so that people still choose to build artillery, mechanized infantry and armor instead of just a big pile of stugs.

Tank Destroyers (Stugs)
Attack: 1
Defense: 2
Cost: 5
Move: 2
Combined arms: each tank destroyer matched up with an armor unit attacks @2.

Blitz: each tank destroyer matched up with an armor unit that is not also matched up with a mechanized infantry can blitz with the armor unit.

Anti-tank: for every hit @1 by a Tank Destroyer, the opposing side must choose to lose either an armor or mechanized infantry unit if they have one available.
(Note: Stugs kill tanks; mechs protect tanks, so you want to have all 3)

@Gargantua:

It shouldn’t be like a submarine suprise strike.

But the advantage COULD be, that when rolling your TD’s on defense @2, hits are DIRECTLY allocated to enemy mechanized units, OR tanks, BEFORE infantry.

IE, whoever has suffered hits from a tank destroyer, must select his tanks as casualties first.

Cost 5, attack 2, defense 2, move 2, opponent must select tanks/mech/td units as first casualties from hits suffered

I find this TD stat interesting.
SPArtillery and TD will share same basics:
A2D2M2C5
TD targets directly Armored unit (SPA/TD/Tank) only on defense when getting a hit on a 1 or 2 roll.
Making it better on defense rather than offense.
SPArt will be better on offense while giving +1A Inf/Mech Inf support.

I’ve just found that there is many, many threads about Assault Guns / SPA (Self-Propelled Artillery) / SPG / TD / Anti-Tank units/ Mobile Artillery / Mechanized Artillery / etc.

Here just one post which summarize a lot of possibilities:

@Imperious:

Infantry                                 1-2-1-3
Elite Infantry                          2-2-1-4: +1 1st round of Att. or Def.
Mechanized Infantry               1-2-2-4: blitz with tanks
Artillery                                 2-2-1-4: supports infantry in attack
Light Tank                          2-2-2-2@9: blitz, +1 com. Arms w/ Med or Heavy armor on attack
Mechanized Artillery (SPA)      2-2-2-5:supp. inf; 1st strike salvo
SPG (tank destroyer)              2-3-2-5: blitz, tank hunt on roll of 1
SPG (Heavy TD)                     3-4-1-7: tank hunt on roll of 1
Medium Tank                         3-3-2-6: blitz, combine arms w/ Tac
Heavy Tank                            4-4-1-8:

Infantry 1-2-1-3
Conscripts 1-1-1-2 ( can only build if you lose an originally controlled area and only 1 per factory)
Mechanized 1-2-2-4
Artillery 2-2-1-4
Heavy Artillery 3-2-1-5
Light tank ( early war)  2-3-2-5 ( starting tanks for all)
Medium Tank ( mid war) 3-3-2-6 ( can build these only from turn 3)
Heavy Tank ( late war) 4-4-1-8 ( can build these only after turn 6)
Self Propelled Artillery 4-3-2-8 ( if rolls a 1, enemy non infantry unit lost)
Alternate fighter 4-4-4-11

@Imperious:

Right heavy tank moves 1 in combat and 2 in NCM

Light tank at 2-2-2-5 vs. 2-3-2-5  makes me want heavy artillery if the light is 2-2-2-5

Here is two others not so old threads on this topic:
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28349.msg1005479#msg1005479

http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=26708.msg931373#msg931373
Here is one interesting post from this thread:
@knp7765:

@Uncrustable:

Problem is…i don’t think there were any significant number of self propelled artillery in WWII.
Meaning blitzing artillery and artillery that attack on 2 spaces would be historically inaccurate.

A mech artillery unit that could move 2 spaces in NONCOMBAT move only would be more historically accurate.

So you don’t think the Hummel, StuG, M-7 Priest or M-18 could move 2 spaces or blitz? These vehicles were build on tank chassis and were somewhat lighter than tanks so they would be able to keep up with tanks and mechs. Even though they were limited by having a fixed gun that couldn’t traverse side-to-side, they were a little cheaper to make and had a few advantages over tanks. This is why I suggested keeping them the same cost as tanks (@ 6) with less firepower on attack (since they were usually more defensive in nature) and gave them the special ability to target enemy armor at a 1.
There were a lot of SPGs and tank destroyers built during the war, I know Germany made a lot of them. Tanks just got more attention.
@Uncrustable:

I stand corrected.
Though the StuG and M-18 were tank destroyers not artillery.

After examination of many posts and various TD stats, here is my boosted up version for 3 different types of mechanized unit:

Self-Propelled Artillery
SPA A2D2M2C5
Can blitz when paired to a Tank or to a Mech Inf. (It is different from TD and SPG.)
Give +1A to 1 Inf or Mech Inf, when paired with. (Same as OOB Artillery unit.)

Self-Propelled Gun (higher defense value)
SPG A2D3M2C5
Can blitz when paired to a Tank.
On “1” hit rolled, it destroys any other ground unit before an Infantry (Art, Mech Inf, AAA, SPG, SPA, TD, Tk), if available, i.e. Inf are chosen last by SPG.

Tank Destroyer (lower defense value, higher cost)
TD A2D2M2C6
Can blitz when paired to a Tank.
On any hit, it destroys a mechanized unit (Mech Inf, SPG, SPA, TD, Tk) first.

Here is my revised version for a single type of Mobile Artillery unit (SPA / SPG /TD):

Mechanized Artillery (Assault Gun)
Attack: 2
Defense: 2
Move: 2
Cost: 5
Can blitz when paired to a Tank or to a Mech Inf.
Infantry Support: Give +1A to a paired Infantry or Mech Infantry
Tank Hunter: On a “1” rolled, it hits a mechanized unit (Mech Inf, Mech Art, Tank).
On a “1” rolled, it hits an armored unit (Tank or a Mech Art).

This unit will get both roles as Inf support & Tank Destroyer and have a limited blitzing capacity.
And because of these 3 capacities, the Tank Hunter ability should be reduced a little and get only the same blitz capacity as Mech Inf, I think.

@knp7765:

Tank destroyers and self propelled guns usually will have the same values for attack, defense, movement and cost. The difference will be in their respective special abilities:
Self Propelled Guns can boost Mechanized Infantry attack factor to 2 and can blitz when paired with a Mechanized Infantry unit.
Tank Destroyers do not boost other units, but on a roll of 1 they can target enemy armor units.

However, some will put SPGs at A 2 D 2 M 2 Cost 5. Cost is one more than regular artillery for extra movement.
and Tank Destroyers at A 2 D 3 M 2 Cost 6. Cost is one more than SPGs for higher defense and targeting ability.

I gave you a plus +1 on this my brother. I do mine differently, but I like how you think. I’m big on D6 and trying to make it work while keeping costs the same.

@ Baron You are a thinker when it comes to stats and I encourage you to post, but in all honesty we don’t all need to come to a consensus or a strict ruling on how custom pieces need to work. By all means keep sharing your ideas but let’s not try to nail down a single HR on every subject in regards to HRs and custom units. Thanks for sharing Baron.

@toblerone77:

@knp7765:

Tank destroyers and self propelled guns usually will have the same values for attack, defense, movement and cost. The difference will be in their respective special abilities:
Self Propelled Guns can boost Mechanized Infantry attack factor to 2 and can blitz when paired with a Mechanized Infantry unit.
Tank Destroyers do not boost other units, but on a roll of 1 they can target enemy armor units.

However, some will put SPGs at A 2 D 2 M 2 Cost 5. Cost is one more than regular artillery for extra movement.
and Tank Destroyers at A 2 D 3 M 2 Cost 6. Cost is one more than SPGs for higher defense and targeting ability.

I gave you a plus +1 on this my brother. I do mine differently, but I like how you think. I’m big on D6 and trying to make it work while keeping costs the same.

@ Baron You are a thinker when it comes to stats and I encourage you to post, but in all honesty we don’t all need to come to a consensus or a strict ruling on how custom pieces need to work. By all means keep sharing your ideas but let’s not try to nail down a single HR on every subject in regards to HRs and custom units. Thanks for sharing Baron.

Yeah, I still prefer D6 myself. I have tinkered with the idea of going to a D12 system because you do have so many more possibilities and can really give unique values to all sorts of different equipment. The problem is I would have to make up a whole new battle board. Also, I’m not sure that I want to add too many new units for fear of bogging down the game too much.
Also, another reason I am still kind of “married” do D6 is because I use the FMG Combat Dice. They look so cool and I just love them.

Has anyone else put in thought into a Mechanized AA Gun? I know there’s no piece for it but it’s a thought.

Ok, first of all, this has to be kept simple and not overly complex. So here’s my thoughts:
Tank Destroyer
Cost 5
Move 2
Attack 2
Defense 2
Cannot blitz.
On a roll of a 1 on attack or 2 on defense, the enemy player must select a Tank as a casualty. If he has no Tanks, he must select a Tank Destroyer as a casualty. If he has neither, he can select any other unit he wants. The Tank or Tank Destroyer selected as a casualty can still return fire.

How about attack at 3 defend at 2 and choose any land vehicle as its target on a roll of 1 for attack only. Cost 5 and can blitz.

@Yavid:

Has anyone else put in thought into a Mechanized AA Gun? I know there’s no piece for it but it’s a thought.

I use trucks that work essentially as a land transport. I suppose you could have towed AAA.

@SS:

How about attack at 3 defend at 2 and choose any land vehicle as its target on a roll of 1 for attack only. Cost 5 and can blitz.

I think tank destroyers were more of a defensive weapon – ie. laying in wait for attacking armor to come to it.
So I would think attack 2, defend 3 and the roll of 1 allows it to target when defending, although I think the targeting ability should be on attack and defense, but if I had to choose one I would choose defense first.

Ok. They were used more on defense than attack. Attack at 2 and defend at 3. Pick the land piece on a roll of 1 for attack and defend and blitzing because they were used on front lines too. So might have to change in my games do to being to strong on attack. Like barabossa game has them at ( 12d die ) attack at 7, defend at 5, pick piece on 2 or less on attack and defend and can blitz.

@toblerone77:

@knp7765:

Tank destroyers and self propelled guns usually will have the same values for attack, defense, movement and cost. The difference will be in their respective special abilities:
Self Propelled Guns can boost Mechanized Infantry attack factor to 2 and can blitz when paired with a Mechanized Infantry unit.
Tank Destroyers do not boost other units, but on a roll of 1 they can target enemy armor units.

However, some will put SPGs at A 2 D 2 M 2 Cost 5. Cost is one more than regular artillery for extra movement.
and Tank Destroyers at A 2 D 3 M 2 Cost 6. Cost is one more than SPGs for higher defense and targeting ability.

I gave you a plus +1 on this my brother. I do mine differently, but I like how you think. I’m big on D6 and trying to make it work while keeping costs the same.

@ Baron You are a thinker when it comes to stats and I encourage you to post, but in all honesty we don’t all need to come to a consensus or a strict ruling on how custom pieces need to work. By all means keep sharing your ideas but let’s not try to nail down a single HR on every subject in regards to HRs and custom units. Thanks for sharing Baron.

Don’t see on which post on this thread you base your assumptions.
Actually, the last one is clearly a summary of many ideas.

However, I was under the impression that there is an hint of a general agreement on SPA (above, it is name SPG but clearly related to artillery unit).
Mostly because the Knp7765 (an experienced poster which was answering my question) post and rise a +1.

Besides, the terminological confusion, I think most people would give a HBG SPA scuplt this stat:

will put SPGs at A 2 D 2 M 2 Cost 5. Cost is one more than regular artillery for extra movement.

Self Propelled Guns can boost Mechanized Infantry attack factor to 2 and can blitz when paired with a Mechanized Infantry unit.

The sole minor difference is to blitz or not to blitz (with a Mech Inf)?

About Tank Destroyer, it is clearly a brain-stormed unit in progress. There is a lot of variations.
Many seems to like the “1” rolled destroyed a specific unit (Armored or Mechanized).

However, this abilities doesn’t fit in AAA system as yours giving +1 A/D to Light Tank:

TD- A3/D1/M2/C5 can blitz with tank. Supports light tank +1. US tank doctrine was to use a combination of infantry to support tanks while tanks supported infantry. This is just the way I see TDs. The TDs covered the tanks due to their heavier firepower but their thin armor made them vulnerable to enemy tanks.

I must add that I also see why Knp7765’s TD is interesting:
TD frame have almost the same armor as Medium Tank. (Defense 3)
TD have a bigger gun but were not as maneuverable as Tank and have a support role as Artillery. (Offense 2)
TD have a defensive role of taking care of tank, tank hunter. (“1” rolled, hit a SPA/TD/Tk.)
The “1” rolled designated a specific target is a powerful defensive abilities. (higher cost than 5)
For all these reason, it make sense to give such stats:

Tank Destroyers at A 2 D 3 M 2 Cost 6. Cost is one more than SPGs for higher defense and targeting ability.

on a roll of 1 they can target enemy armor units

Baron, my only point was there are now two threads talking about this. I didn’t say that you shouldn’t post or what you are saying isn’t interesting. I was politely trying to point out that that people are all going to have differing ideas.

With all due respect, and I apologize if I’m taking it differently from your intent, your large amount of posts on the subject and additional thread seemed to suggest that you are aiming for a semi-official HR. I don’t have a problem with that either.

In my post you recently cited, I wish you would have highlighted the fact that I also complimented knp for his ideas but that I was using my units slightly differently.

If you took offense I apologize. I’ve been reading both threads with interest and have enjoyed everyone’s posts.

@SS:

Ok. They were used more on defense than attack. Attack at 2 and defend at 3. Pick the land piece on a roll of 1 for attack and defend and blitzing because they were used on front lines too. So might have to change in my games do to being to strong on attack. Like barabossa game has them at ( 12d die ) attack at 7, defend at 5, pick piece on 2 or less on attack and defend and can blitz.

Well If we convert these stats to D6 attack would be D6@3.5  defense would be D6@2.5, I still resist using D12 but the advantage is clear in that you can essentially roll 1/2 PIPs in the A&A dice mechanic. I’m not saying “go with my stats”, but trying not to stray too much from OOB stats and cost I chose to give the TD a matched cost to SPA. Just IMO I see the TD as more as an offensive weapon, a lighter or medium tank but with a big gun.

However, looking at the stats you could put the TD in the “classic tank” cost bracket of 5 A3/D2/M2 and SPA A2/D2/M2/C5 SPA basically same as ART but can move another space.

Now The reason I gave TDs the stats A3/D1/M2/C5 is because I use light tanks @ A2/D1/M2/C4 these are offensively balanced against OOB MINF and OOB ART

Essentially in a 4IPC cost bracket light tanks give mobility and offense. MINF give mobility and defense. OOB art give a balance of defense and offense at the cost of mobility.

Paying one more IPC (5 price bracket) the TD gives firepower and mobility (A3/D1*/M2) but at a cost of lighter defensive capability. The SPA gives a balance of firepower, defense, and the addition flexibility of supporting infantry. *Defensive score of 1 if using light tanks.

Finally in my HRs I allow anything that land-based that move two spaces (other than empty transport trucks) to blitz.

This post was just how I reasoned my cost/combat structure given the pieces I intend to use with a D6 system.

Ya Tob I here ya. In my 3 39 global games, we do have all the advance pieces that you are talking about and more pieces with them all being D12 games. Just makin some suggestions to pieces and converting them to D6’s.