Hmmm. So Taranto was successful for your UK player? Well, I admit, that does change things alot since you lose 2 of your 3 transports. I guess that is why I’m not getting your problem. In every game we have played of Alpha +2, the Taranto raid has never worked. Every time our UK player has tried it, he ends up either losing everything with at the very least the Italian BB and 2 transports surviving and able to take more troops where ever they are needed. Or, he will see the battle is going badly and retreat, saving some of his navy and air force but also leaving the Axis with more stuff.
Now, in some of the earlier setups, like OOB and I think the first Alpha, Britain often pulled a successful Taranto and like you said, Italy usually ends up pretty much crippled and unable to make headway in Africa. But in Alpha +2, it just doesn’t work for us. Watch, I say this and in our next game it will probably work. Wait, taranto did work once for our UK player in Alpha +2, but that was because Germany did not send any planes down. Then the Italians were slaughtered and if I remember right, still had a carrier and fighter surviving. Since our German player (usually me) started sending a couple of planes down to help out my Facist buddies, Taranto has been kaput.
Maybe your UK player is just luckier than ours? Sorry, I guess I’m not much help to you.
Hmmm. So Taranto was successful for your UK player? Well, I admit, that does change things alot since you lose 2 of your 3 transports. I guess that is why I’m not getting your problem. In every game we have played of Alpha +2, the Taranto raid has never worked. Every time our UK player has tried it, he ends up either losing everything with at the very least the Italian BB and 2 transports surviving and able to take more troops where ever they are needed. Or, he will see the battle is going badly and retreat, saving some of his navy and air force but also leaving the Axis with more stuff.
Now, in some of the earlier setups, like OOB and I think the first Alpha, Britain often pulled a successful Taranto and like you said, Italy usually ends up pretty much crippled and unable to make headway in Africa. But in Alpha +2, it just doesn’t work for us. Watch, I say this and in our next game it will probably work. Wait, taranto did work once for our UK player in Alpha +2, but that was because Germany did not send any planes down. Then the Italians were slaughtered and if I remember right, still had a carrier and fighter surviving. Since our German player (usually me) started sending a couple of planes down to help out my Facist buddies, Taranto has been kaput.
Maybe your UK player is just luckier than ours? Sorry, I guess I’m not much help to you.
I agree with this assessment. 2 fighters deployed from G1 to southern Italy equals a Toranto disaster for the UK. An experienced player wouldn’t risk their British fleet under these circumstances no matter how lucky they were feeling.
That’s exactly what I did…2 fighters from G1 into southern Italy
I’m not exactly sure how to read the battle calculator but it reads:
Ave. win % 80.1%
UK 7.8%
Italy 12.1%
I have no idea how to read it, but if that means anything to anyone does this make sense?
Remember that you can bring 1 fighter from England to the Taranto raid.
1 fighter from malta
1 fighter from gibraltar
1 tac.bomber from the carrier
1 fighter from UK
1 CA, 1 CV, 1 DD
vs
3 fighters
1 bb
1 ca
In this case scenario the UK win % is 65.5%.
If you don’t add 1 UK fighter to the battle you won’t win it.
My experience attacking SZ 97 with England is I win 0.05% of the time regardless what Germany moved down there to defend. It’s a cursed sea zone!
Realistically, I prefer to invite England to attack there, I have less warships to deal with later as I can easily sink whatever’s left and now they cannot bottle up the Med.
Likewise, I’d rather go bottle up the Med and ignore the Italians…it’s a nice kill, but over-all, I don’t think it’s really worth my trouble.
You don’t need to bring a fighter from the UK. You can bring the one from Normandy if it lives.
UK can always win the Sea-Zone - if it wants to.
An interesting counter, is NOT to scramble ironically… But either way you end up with problems.
Yea you are a “little” bit weaker against a German Sea-lion, but it’s a MASSIVE Axis committment, and it means sweet-all if you’ve got no Italian campaign.
The Taranto raid is mathematically to England’s advantage, regardless of landing Luftwaffe. I prefer not to respond to luck or non-luck, and look at the math. If a battle has a 75-80% chance of success or higher, and the outcome would benefit me, what’s stopping me? Past experience is a poor indicator when it comes to present-tense mathematical probability.
Italy should be severely limited in the Med in any game in which Britain takes on the Italian fleet and has even luck. Im that case, a second British IC is a great move - though personally I find it to be far safer in Persia or Iraq.
Take a look at Taranto combined with assault of Iraq on the first turn. Build a Minor IC in Iraq in turn 2. Prevent oil money for the Axis, and bolster India/Caucasus, as needed. It woks pretty well.
If no Taranto, don’t even think about Iraq… Italy will have it quickly.
Hmmm. So Taranto was successful for your UK player? Well, I admit, that does change things alot since you lose 2 of your 3 transports. I guess that is why I’m not getting your problem. In every game we have played of Alpha +2, the Taranto raid has never worked. Every time our UK player has tried it, he ends up either losing everything with at the very least the Italian BB and 2 transports surviving and able to take more troops where ever they are needed. Or, he will see the battle is going badly and retreat, saving some of his navy and air force but also leaving the Axis with more stuff.
Now, in some of the earlier setups, like OOB and I think the first Alpha, Britain often pulled a successful Taranto and like you said, Italy usually ends up pretty much crippled and unable to make headway in Africa. But in Alpha +2, it just doesn’t work for us. Watch, I say this and in our next game it will probably work. Wait, taranto did work once for our UK player in Alpha +2, but that was because Germany did not send any planes down. Then the Italians were slaughtered and if I remember right, still had a carrier and fighter surviving. Since our German player (usually me) started sending a couple of planes down to help out my Facist buddies, Taranto has been kaput.
Maybe your UK player is just luckier than ours? Sorry, I guess I’m not much help to you.
wtf?? taranto has yet to fail in our games, and we put 2 german fighters. on average the british have 2 fighters left. (destroying bordeaux fighter has no effect, they can use figs from london which land on the to be destroyed carrier)
fighters from india can then secure egypt for rest of the game
The dice gods routinely frown upon me in SZ 97, regardless of which side I am on. Thus, for ME (and maybe me alone) SZ 97 only has a 5% win rating and that’s defined as 1 British aircraft left or less…
In the alpha 2 setup, it seems Italy is severely under powered. If England does things right it can have 6 infantry, 2 artillery, 1 tank, 1 mech, and 2 fighters. How can Italy defeat these forces with just 5 inf, 2 art, 1 mech and a tank. Especially if UK builds a factory in Egypt. How can Italy ferry troops over with just a transport. I’ve never seen Italy get very far in Africa, even if London is controlled by Germany.
What strategies do you use to make Italy more effective, assuming England does taranto and pulls back to Egypt.
With Italy, so much depends on what happens the first turn with the UK player. My move with Germany is to send a couple of fighters into Italy after the invasion of France to protect the Italian fleet when the UK attacks. Depending on the losses in the Med, it will really change up what you are able to do.
If the Italian fleet is mostly destroyed in the first turn, I will typically buy nothing that first round and buy up fleet units the second round. In the event that I do have a viable fleet, then I will send my forces in northern Africa to try to make my way to the middle east as soon as possible…. taking Persia and the other national objectives is the only way to make Italy economically viable.
While we are on the subject, I am hoping that the Alpha 3 rules do something to address the Italian starting position to make their opening strategies a little more viable.
Building an IC in Egypt is a bad idea for the Brits.
Building an IC in Egypt is a bad idea for the Brits.
Why is that. If London doesn’t fall, England can easily defend Egypt?
IF England doesn’t fall, you may be right. You would also need the planes from India to help protect Egypt, which couldn’t get there until round 2. If Taranto does work for you, then you should be golden. Pull everything back to Egypt, fly over the Indian planes plus maybe a transport at South Africa UK 1 takes those 2 inf to Egypt. Place your IC UK 2 and you should have enough to hold it from the Italians.
However, if Taranto doesn’t work, then the Italians will have 3 transports of stuff to throw at Egypt round 1, which they will if you put an IC there UK 1. If you wait until UK 2, then Italy will have the 3 transports plus their Tobruk force and air craft and maybe even the 2 inf, 1 art from Ethiopia. I just don’t see England having enough to hold Egypt then.
I would say an IC in Egypt for the UK is ONLY viable if Taranto works. Otherwise it will be a gift for the Italians.
Building an IC in Egypt is a bad idea for the Brits.
Why is that. If London doesn’t fall, England can easily defend Egypt?
Once Egypt is easily defended, you don’t need an IC there.
If UK puts an IC on Egypt instead of stacking England with infantry, Germany will pounce on an easy Sealion. Then England is easily neutered, Germany has more units for Barbarossa, and Italy gets a free, well positioned IC, since UK can’t build to defend.
If UK puts an IC on Egypt instead of stacking England with infantry, Germany will pounce on an easy Sealion. Then England is easily neutered, Germany has more units for Barbarossa, and Italy gets a free, well positioned IC, since UK can’t build to defend.
Yeah, that’s something I forgot. If the UK spends too much to develop/defend Egypt, they might be leaving themselves weak on London. Even if they have enough defense for London and could afford a minor on Egypt, they couldn’t afford to defend it and Italy will take it. UK’s first strategy should always be 1: Survive Sealion, let everything else go until you are sure London is secure. 2: Pick up the pieces and then go out to stop Italy. Italy may have 2-3 rounds of free hand in Africa, but you should still have the Sout Africa IC once you are sure Germany’s not going for London anymore and you can still stop Italy.
By the way McMan, I just love the “Luftwaffle”. Very inventive.
Do you put syrup on that? Or bratwurst?
Exactly. If the UK builds an IC in Egypt, then Germany should definitely SeaLion. That’s 3 or 4 units less they’d have on the UK. Plus, if Italy plays it’s cards right(assuming a 1/2 way decent Italian player), then they’ll take Egypt eventually. That’s a free IC for Italy. Better to put your IPC’s in the defense of the UK and units down in S. Africa to make life difficult for the Italians, until the US comes into the war and returns the favor back to the Italians. If the US is doing a KGF strategy against the Axis, then it does take long for the US to neutralize the Italians if they want.
McMan, are those chocolate Me-109’s, He-111’s and Stuka’s? LOL! :-D And of course, you use German chocolate!
