Minor Axis Army Pieces

Ah, one thing that helps explain the prevalence of Panzer IV’s and the (relatively) low #'s of Panzer III’s is that the number of German vehicles purchased by the Axis minors rose sharply in the late war period, as these countries began to realize the their pre-war purchased and/or own designs couldn’t compete on the Eastern Front.  (Not to mention that the Hungarians and Romanians, whose divisions had been decimated at Stalingrad, probably had very few of these earlier vehicles left anyway…)  During this late-war period, the Germans also phased out the Panzer III altogether as a conventional tank, but continued to produce both StuG III’s and Panzer IV’s throughout the war.  This makes me think that my assumption about the minors using more early than late model Panzer IV’s may also be incorrect, but I don’t have the #'s to be sure.

Yes, that looks like good information, there.  It seems to indicate that the late-war Panzer IV purchase were late-war models.  This seems to also be the case with the Hungarian 1944 purchase of 100 Panzer IV’s, though I’m not 100% about that because it seems the Germans often forced their allies to pay top dollar for new tanks and then sent them well-worn used tanks instead!  (No “Nazi Lend-Lease” program, that’s for sure!)

Anyway, it makes me think that late-war Panzer IV’s might be a better choice and give more differentiation from Panzer III’s…

On the other hand, the #'s we’re dealing with are small in all these cases: the Hungarians built more of their own designs (the Toldi & Turan series) and the Finns operated more captured Soviet tanks than either got from Germany!

PLEASE make the Panzer III.  I really would like to see that tank.  I was so looking forward to it from FMG then they came out with 2 heavy tanks.

An idea for a Hungarian tank, the Turan I.  I think it would be more of a light tank, along the lines of the 38(t), but a pretty cool looking design.

So would you rather see a Panzer III or a Turan I, k?

I think his idea, though, is to stick with units that could equally double as German units, so that it could serve both as an axis minor set and a supplemental German set… and he’s thinking about doing both a Panzer III AND a Panzer IV (though which version of each is still an open question…)

Did I summarize this correctly, Coach?

In any case, the Turan was a descendant of the Panzer 35/38 series anyway: the Hungarians got the Germans (with some effort, surprisingly enough, since the Germans had already turned the design down) to let them license-produce a Czech prototype based on the Panzer 38 called the T22 (if I’m remembering the whole twisted tale correctly…)  In terms of its actual capability, the Turan was more in the Panzer 38 class of “medium-light” tanks rather than the Panzer III class of “medium” tanks, as I understand it… so the Panzer 38 is a good choice as a fill-in.

I don’t know about the Panzer IV side-skirt issue one way or the other.  I’ll look around and see what I can find next time I need to take a break from the Late Bronze Age…

Yep, according to that link you referenced above, the evidence seems to be that the bulk of the shipments to Romania were Ausf H’s, which means both longer barrel and side skirts.  I’d say do your StuGIII’s with side skirts too, then, since the largest orders of StuG’s come from around the same time (late war) and the StuGIII and PzIV would then have a  natural “fit” with each other.  You could then put the short-barreled early-war Panzer IV in the German supplemental set later.  Demand for the Panzer III seems strangely high to me, but why argue with it?  Throw one in this set and you’d give it another selling point for those disappointed by FMG’s last-minute decision to switch to bigger & badder tanks.

Hey Coach, thank you on the Panzer III.  Really looking forward to it.

Dr Larsen, did the StuG III have side skirt armor like the later Panzer IVs?  I don’t remember seeing one with armor like that.

First of all let me register my excitement and support of this project, new pieces are more than welcome!  Second, my I suggest a tech/advanced/late war unit set?  I think this would sell very well, I know I would buy it. Thirdly, what is the estimated time frame for this product?  I only ask because I think the FMG project is going on year 2 now if I am correct, and it’s been something of a tease to say the least.

So basically you plan on doing sets for all nations that will have units not provided in the new FMG set?  If so that sounds pretty awesome, a great way for all us fans to get our hands on the units we want!  Keep the community posted as I am sure everyone will be more than eager to purchase your units.  I must say, I’ve been playing A&A since I was a kid and this is the best time to be a fan.  Thanks for the service to all us fans and best of luck.

Another question coach.  In terms of color, will these pieces match WOTC pieces or FMG pieces?  Personally I’d prefer you try to match WOTC colors.  I know there has been some debate about this on the FMG pieces forum, but I feel most of us will use a mish-mash of all the pieces at our disposal.

@knp7765:

Hey Coach, thank you on the Panzer III.  Really looking forward to it.

Dr Larsen, did the StuG III have side skirt armor like the later Panzer IVs?  I don’t remember seeing one with armor like that.

The short answer is yes… there’s a good clear photo of one at the link Coach provided.  The StuG III and Panzer IV were the two German AFV’s that were produced throughout the whole war with numerous versions.  About midway through the war they stopped making Panzer III’s, as their smaller turret ring couldn’t handle the more powerful guns that were needed vs. T-34’s and KV’s, but they continued to make StuG’s in the same factories (as they were built on the same chassis: notice the distinctive 6-wheel suspension.  Panzer III’s and their derivatives used a 6-wheel suspension and Panzer IV’s and their derivatives used an 8-wheel suspension.)  Eliminating the turret, you see, allowed them to mount a bigger gun than a turret would have allowed for.  It also lowered the profile, making them perfect as a defensive “ambush” weapon, just as Germany’s situation was moving from offense to defense.  This is why it makes sense to give StuG’s a slight PRICE advantage over conventional tanks (say, 1 IPC cheaper), with perhaps the same defense ranking (3) and a small reduction in offensive ranking (2).

Quote from Wikipedia, re side skirts on StuG’s:

From May 1943, side hull skirts (schurzen) were fitted to G models for added armor protection particularly against anti-tank rifles. Side skirts were retro-fitted to some Ausf. F/8 models, as they were be fitted to all front line StuGs and other tanks by June 1943 in preparation for the battle of Kursk. Mountings for side skirts proved inadequate, many were lost in the field. From March 1944, improved mounting was introduced, as a result side skirts are seen more often with late model Ausf G

So it seems that they were fitted at the factory on nearly all of he late-war (mid '43 on) models and retrofitted on many others, but poor mountings also caused many to be lost in the field, which may account for the fact that many in-action pictures of even late models lack them… with the final versions having improved mountings causing the late-late versions to be seen pretty regularly with them.

thats why i like the pz.iv cuz it looks cool w/ the side skierts

Hey coach and Dr Larsen,
Thanks for the link, quotes and all the info.  Sometimes it amazes me how much I am into WW 2 and especially German armor, yet there are still things that I have missed in my studies and browsing.

@knp7765:

Hey coach and Dr Larsen,
Thanks for the link, quotes and all the info.

Hey, no prob, man; it’s great to be able to share this stuff with interested people!

Sometimes it amazes me how much I am into WW 2 and especially German armor, yet there are still things that I have missed in my studies and browsing.

You said it!  I know I’m learning new stuff all the time.  It was only, oh, about a month ago that I learned that the StuG III was the most produced German AFV of the war, and I was like “Huh…! That can’t be!” and yet sure enough, it was!  …And when I learned more about how the German war industries worked (or in some cases, didn’t work) it made perfect sense…  Altogether, the numbers on the four most produced German AFV’s were:

1. StuG III: 9,408  (+1,211 very similar StuH 42)
2. PzKpfw IV: 8,800 (+ 3-4,000 StuG IV, Panzerjager IV & other related variants)
3. Panther: 6,000 (+ 4-500 JagdPanthers and other variants)
4. PzKpfw III: 5,774 (not including the StuG/StuH variants)

Compare this with the more than 57,000 T-34’s made by the Soviets and then just slightly fewer Shermans made by the US and it starts to become clear why the Germans lost the war!  (And note that these numbers do not include the TD and SP artillery variants of the T-34 and Sherman, of which somewhat more than 10,000 of each were made…)

Yeah, one of the reasons the Allies were able to defeat Germany was by sheer volume.  The Sherman tank was a really decent tank, but it really couldn’t compare to the Panthers and Tigers of the Germans.  I saw an interview with a guy that drove Sherman tanks in the war and he said that you could send up 4 Shermans against a Panther and while you would take the Panther out, you end up losing 3 of your 4 Shermans.  What was sad is that the guys that were training for tank duty here in the States were told by the Army that they were getting the best tanks out there and the Germans had nothing to compare with them.  Then they get over to Europe and what a nasty surprise.