Bombing factories with increased production

@mosuper:

As I understand it, the answer is no but would love the move official people to weigh in.

I suspect that the rule as I understand it is a bit cleaner:

If a germany falls falls (say to UK) then all territory belonging to Germany stays German. Suppose, all while Berlin is UK hands, US takes France ––> US gets France. If next, Japan takes France, then Japan gets to claim France. If next, Berlin is liberated, then France immediately goes back to Germany.

And, for factories, I think the rule is:

A country can only use an IC in a territory that they controlled at the beginning of their turn.

Some please correct me if I’m not getting the rule right.

All above is correct.

@mosuper:

What about when german units are available in a german country and Japanese units move in. Does Japan get to claim it or is it only when no German units are there?

In order for Japan to conquer (versus liberate) a German controlled territory after Berlin has fallen, the territory has to be taken by an allied power.  Just moving Japanese units into a Germany territory does nothing to the ownership of the territory, whether Berlin was lost or not.

If each victory city is given an IC by default that is 9 additional factories.

Japan at 2 in Kiangsu
America at 2 in Philippines (to Japan in the first round) and 1 in Hawaii (target for Japan)
Britain at 2 in Australia, 1 in Kwangtung (to Japan in the first round), 3 in India (target for Japan) 3 in Eastern Canada
Germany at 6 in France, 3 in Poland (targets for UK/US and UK/US/Russia respectively?)

So far that’s 14 starting production to Axis (if you count what Japan can take in the first round), and 10 to Allies.

That’s 18 factories just on the VCs alone, but you’d still have what, like another 5 factories left over to try and balance against that?

The most significant change from the introduction of the 9 VC factories suggested above seems to be in India and France. But these might be fun in developing a KJF game, or for German Atlantic/Med action. Poland could allow for more aggressive move against Russia, whereas France allows for more aggressive moves against England or Africa. The next biggest change, perhaps even more significant, would be the situation around Japan.

If the Japanese starting factories were concentrated on Kiangsu (VC Shanghai), Kwangtung (VC Hong Kong) and Philippines (VC Manila), Japan’s whole orientation is shifted towards the American thrust. These make sound IC choices over Manchuria, East Indies and Borneo. Those last 3 are all rich in IPCs already, representing the raw materials, but focusing the actual production facilities on Kiangsu, Kwangtung and Philippines is probably more interesting for gameplay, and makes sense historically. Philippines was targeted because of the large bases there. Hong Kong was also targeted as a base of potential British resistance to Japanese designs on the Pacific, and Kiangsu represents all the major areas of activity in the Chinese war since 1937. So it makes sense for Japan to have these territories in their immediate objectives, and also to mark their importance with factory units. This combined with the target VC factories in Hawaii, India, and Australia, and you instantly have a game that is geared much more towards Pacific conflict.

The question from there is where to put any remaining factories. I count 23 total factory sculpts in my box. You guys have the same or is it 24 and I just misplaced one? :)

Anyway, starting VC factories seem like the way to do it, then fix the remaining production where it does the most good on balance. I think you have to fix the production at some number and then not allow additional production to be purchased for this to succeed. Otherwise you end up with that dreaded factory in East Indies that makes the Japanese defense so easy to lock down and allows for a broad launch across the whole bottom of the board. This distribution of factories at VCs would remove the Japanese tank drop factory in Manchuria, but would still allow similar production, just spread out across territories that are somewhat more challenging to defend. Kiangsu, Kwangtung, and Philippines would require more fleet actions and forward coverage to use. They create interesting power projection points, but without allowing such massive drops into south asia. I think it would be superior for the gameplay, over the traditional locations for additional Japanese production, and it forces recognition of all the VCs. Highlights VCs in terms of the actual gameplay, and not just as some extra aside. I think it might work

With the remaining 5 ICs, I suggest the 3 Russian territories Archangel, Kazakh, or Novosibirsk just for the blocking potential mentioned above, and to give the Russians some light early flexibility in the placement of infantry, artillery or tanks.) The other factories I suggest going to Egypt and Alaska, to counterbalance against the starting production advantage of Germany, and the production that can potentially be seized by Japan. Egypt gives another Axis target that Britain must defend (splitting their purchases across a longer line, but also giving them the potential to project earlier), while Alaska can serve as a target of opportunity for Japan, or as a potential spring board the Americans. An alternative to Egypt might be South Africa, if Allies prove to weak to hold the line, or if there are in fact a total of 24 sculpts rather than 23 you could do both haha.

With 18 down on all VCs where would you put the extra sculpts still remaining?

For this to work, I think it makes sense for China to be under normal US control, to prevent the weirdness of starting factories in Chinese territories. To me this has long been the most sound fix for the China problem anyway, to just consider them US controlled like on all previous gameboards. In fact I think I will make a separate post on the China subject right now.

OK I started a legit thread, so we can plan exactly how this should work.
http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=33665.msg1286598#msg1286598

i go for italy, but only when i am going usa atlantic 100% with intent to land in italy.
one of the downsides of bombing italy, is that they usually only produce 2-3 units per turn.  so to make your bombing effective, you have to deal at least 6 damage, since they can just shrug off the first 4 damage.
however, if you have 3-4 or so total bombers between the usa and uk (easy if none get shot down), then italy is in a world of pain and can only build like 1 infantry per turn.
do a turn 4 or 5 landing with 4 or so transports full of american guys, and well… thats basically my allied strategy right there.

Jumping into this, here was a proposal to a bomb Italy strategy I used against my buddy.

He toyed with the ideal of buying a factory in the Balkans, I would choose Poland for Germany.( He did build a factory in Libya, which could only be bomber for 2 dollars.)

While expensive, Italy or Germany could then build the 1st infantry for 7 dollars , the second and third ones for 4 dollars. (since the max damage on a territory worth 3 is 6).

It still works out to +2 per unit built , but your “start up costs” are cheaper (3 vs 10) If Germany had heavy bombers, using a 3ipc factory would allow you to build 2 heavy bombers a turn for 29 ipcs. (with 3-5 heavy bombers and 2-4 planes on the board, the Atlantic will be empty near your coastlines, and with your starting infantry placed right, Russia will be afraid to move next to them. If the allies do land on your coast, use your next turn to clear their fleet from the board.

You could save “excess” money after you build 3 units, to repair Germany every other turn, or every third turn, for more units.

If you are saving for a big build, then with the little factory, you can place 3 inf a turn for 15 dollars (vs 21 in Germany)  and use the excess money every second or third turn in Germany itself. 21 minus 15 equals 6 dollars saved, paying for the cost of the factory in 3 turns. Just move the AA gun from the damaged German factory to the Poland one during noncombat.

They can bomb you, but you don’t lose any money until you make the repairs, so just think outside the box a bit.
Its not ideal, but it is a work around for an SBR strat.

@katfishkris:

the US now controls Norway, recieves the 3 IPC, and owns the factory.

Thanks :-D

Ok I see, I misunderstood your original post. I thought you meant 50 IPCs without NOs 60 with, you meant 50-60 with NO’s

Thanks for the clarification.

Im so hungry to play more, just need to find the time.

How is the logic as it applies to the real world at all relevant? Is it not simply a matter of game play balance? There are an endless number of unrealistic elements in all axis and allies games, so picking on one, and not another, seems entirely pointless to me.

Danke!

I like that.

The bombing runs and the damage markers give you some flexibility – still painful as all getup, but a great new addition to the SBR rules.