Alpha+2 Allies struggle to win, crazy alternative discovered: Surrender London!

@Funcioneta:

I’d say hold the soviets while Germany and Japan team-up to attack USA

• UK is out of the game forever if Germany plays her cards well (money not wasted on trannies round 2, and used better in land army against the soviets and combat fleet against USA). India on the other hand will be also hard pressed because Japan will attack them round 2

• USSR cannot attack until round 4, and then probably will attack only the Germans

• That leaves USA as the only real menace until Stalin comes to the rescue  :lol: If Axis can achieve naval control of the Atlantic, soon or later Japan will beat India and then will shift most of their income against USA

Without a exilied capital house rule, I’d not try this as UK. Axis could have economic advantage by round 4-5 and it’s not clear if USA can retake London in the near future without risking to lose Hawaii and Sydney … USA cannot buy boats and men at the same time

How is this any different then Germany taking London round 4 and then continuing on after the U.S. anyway?

Japan will be hard pressed, because India will be helping China on turn 1 before Japan’s starting forces can deploy most effectively. Germany will be lagging behind the US/UK fleet, good luck getting through that. Unless Japan focuses on India, they will get out of hand along with Anzac and China…If Japan deals with India, the U.S. outproduces Germany and they cannot match their navy. If Germany goes navy, Russia will get too large. Also another option for Russia is taking the middle east for 2 minor factory sites and a Russian Navy or land campaign to drive back the Japanese if they drive on USA instead. Remember after Germany captures UK it collects 49 plus 3 NOs for 62 IPCs, the US is at 77 IPCs, if any is built for Russia, that income vs the US drops further. Italy may be a non factor in this game.

Remember on turn 1, Germany and Japan have already gone before the decision to abandon UK is made, meaning they are not positioned to capitalize on this sudden development. Also, if Germany fails to build additional transports, the most they can build/land on London is 9 units a turn.

By the way, my last turn 4 invasion of London saw me eliminate 34 infantry/artillery, 1 armor, 5 planes for a cost of 25 German infantry. They Captured London with a loss of 2 air units to AA: 11 artillery, 5 armor, 3 fighters, 4 tacticals, and 1 bomber remained or 16 land units total to hold London.

The question is:
would you rather eliminate 25 German infantry 1 fighter and 1 tactical bomber and permit Italy to collect 25-30 IPCs and Germany to plunder 21-26 IPCs.

Or

would you rather have 2 UK carriers, 2 UK cruisers, 1-2 UK Destroyers, 7 fighters (1 French), 1 tactical, 3 transports and 1 extra artillery,2 extra infantry (from London) permit Italy to collect 16 IPC plus no NOs, Germany plunders 30 IPCs and allow the US an extra 50 IPCs over 2 turns.

The 90 IPCs collected and spent building 30 Infantry during the first 3 turns is offset by the 72 IPCs saved (50/fighters, 7 transport, 9 infantry, 6 armor) it is true that those 90 IPCs cost germany 61 IPCs in units + 22 IPCs for the London territory and NO for 2 turns (turn 4 capture assumed normally) If Germany takes on turn 3, it is even more favorable: 58 IPCs spent, +11 to Berlin minus the cost of more German units lost as it is a closer battle.

Whoever plays UK now has something to do and is not bored and can impact the game.

@Gargantua:

I like it, and better, say you “inspire” the G2 sealion… if it’s Close in terms of Numbers…  what if the Germans BOTCH ?

Sorry, it is not close. I leave 2 infantry on London since Churchill and his cabinet represent the 2 infantry that flee via sea zone 109 transport to Quebec. These 2 units bring the Canadian garrison to 6 units that can support the 7 UK air force when taking Rome or Egypt.

Remember, in the Mediterranean, US hits Rome first with 12 transports, then UK mops up with their 6 land units and 7 air, or they drop those into the US forces to hold against a German counterattack if the US grabs Rome. If you trade London on your terms for Rome and Egypt, the Europe board is stalemated.

Then when Moscow falls, you simply have to retake London the next turn to keep the board locked up.
I envision using the “extra” time the US is in the war to hamper Europe for the first 3-5 game turns, and later turns will likely focus on Japan. I do not say this makes the game pro allied, I think it makes it more of a “balanced” contest with the end outcome up in the air…that is a good thing.

It is my suspicion after careful analysis and 4 games vs 4 people, that axis win solidly with no chance of an upset by between turns 8-12. I believe this approach may make it a contest. I have more games of Alpha to play to test this…the axis approach is London G4, Australia J5, India or Hawaii J7 or 8 for the win…or Volgograd+Novgorod G7-G10 for the win. You don’t need Moscow if you have London, and if they defend Volgograd, just take Moscow for city 8

@SgtBlitz:

This sounds like a terrible idea.  You’re banking on the premise that surrendering London for SURE on UK1 is going to be worth Italy falling on UK4 or UK5 (IF all the cards are played right).  The Allies already have it difficult enough as is in Alpha +.2 without losing 30-35 IPCs for 5 game rounds by surrendering the UK.  150 IPCs lost is a hell of a swing to come back from (maybe 125 if you count in the US’s war dec on Round 2, which usually occurs at the end of Round 3 (if you’re counting correctly)).

Your strategy MIGHT work, barely, on the European map, but I really doubt it will work in Global, mostly because of Japan acting as a counter to the US.  You’re counting on full US builds in the Atlantic to come to the UK’s rescue/take over Italy, and the US isn’t really going to have enough IPCs left over to dissuade the Japs from attacking in the Pacific.  Once one theater is taken over, its one hell of a slog to start taking it back.  Too easy for the Japs to take over the Pacific by J6 or J7.

Building defensively in the UK at least forces most the German IPCs from France and Europe into building TRNs for the landing, those units aren’t cheap and they’re difficult to protect with a decent surface fleet, which requires even more IPCs.  Maybe rather than considering it GAME OVER when the UK falls, have the US and SU build appropriately to counter the Nazis, either by building navy or superior land forces (Eastern Front).  Even if Germany wins London by a sizeable majority, if those troops are trapped in England or end up stuck on the wrong side of the Europe map, it can still spell an Allied win.

I think surrending on UK 1 is even worse than before because now the Germans aren’t required to actually buy the 9 transports now to invade; London is taken on the cheap and the captured IPCs can go to even more naval surface and air units to prevent an Allied navy counterattack.

I obviously do not think its game over when you lose a capital or I would not suggest this tactic, I often wait until 2 capitals fall or the victory cities end it. In fact, I never call a game, victory cities usually ends it for the axis win as is.

Regarding the axis not building the 6-9 additional transports you call for (I only use 9 transports total and land in Scotland 2 turns prior to London capture on turn 4 myself) I would rather the German’s not have the transports as taking back London with only 3 after it is liberated is harder, especially if the air is being used in Russia late game. So I see the lack of building transports a plus.

Secondly, turning around on Russia, when all the German units are pulled back to W. Germany for Sea lion as you have no idea what UK is going to do turn 1, means you are not likely to move into Russia until turn 3-4.

Thirdly, if you use your 70 IPCs for land units and ships, only the first 20 land units will be close to USSR, and ships at best only permit you to equal not exceed the combined allied fleet on G2, you are still outproduced by USA. Japan still has to spend its first 4-5 turns fighting in Asia unless they are going to permit the other allies to expand.

Lastly, London falls anyway by turn 4, and the allies lose anyway with alpha. I am waiting to try this, before I consider it a bad idea. As it is, Axis already win, so what if this makes it closer.

Also, I am not banking on anything other then the fact that Italy will not be collecting the typical 40+ IPCs it has by turn 4. In fact I suspect they will only reach the mid teens turn 1, maybe 20 turn 2, and if they are lucky be at 30 by turn 4.

So I am banking on the USA only needing 4 -5 turns in Europe and then moving against Japan. I’ll have to see how that works.

Basically, I guess this should only be tried by someone that thinks the allies are going to lose anyway, otherwise stick with what works for you. I think waiting until turn 2 reduces the benefit of getting the US in on round 2 and permits Italy to secure Egypt.

@Idi:

OMG are you HIGH!!! All this means is Germany doesn’t have to sink 77 IPC’s into transports and can pick and choose when to take the UK out. Imagine 77 IPC’s to throw at the USSR.

Nope, all I was consuming was some Coca-cola and Dr. Pepper. We thought it sounded crazy too, then we saw the in game effects, however that was Europe only. It remains to be tested on Global.

Italy could not even sail its fleet next to Alexandria/Egypt/Transjordan turn 1 for fear of an air attack that would deliver 5 hits the first round, with Italy only hitting at best 3 times. Remember sea zone 92 is a naval base that permits the UK to strike the combined Italian fleet with all 8 air units and the UK carrier,DD,CA…(not that I would, its just an implied threat).

As to “pick and choose when to take UK out”…I like if they wait, I’ll continue building navy so that the US can focus on transports…saves time for the allies that way.

Either way, I hope to set up the board and look at the effects in game this weekend. I’ll let you know if the outcome is worse then when you try to hold London.

Spent today thinking Globally.

If you can spare the air units in India and opt not to take a 4 dollar island turn 1[not sure if I like this], you can transport 6 land units into Egypt on turn 2 (sz 98 empty transport to Persia turn 1,S. Africa transport[Built turn 1],sea zone 39 transport to Persia-activate turn 1) meet up with the 6 UK air units there. Then the India air units can land there on turn 2 via French Madagascar (the only safe place from Ethiopian units).[turn 1: sea zones: 39,79,77,72-> F. Madagascar; turn 2: sea zones: 72,76,81->Egypt]

This should yield 9 air units and 16 land units. That should yield 25 pieces. I believe Italy can be ready to hit Egypt turn 2 with 18 units [Ethiopia’s 3, Tobruk’s 6, 3 transports 6, 3 air units, 3 bombardments] I would suggest that Ethiopian units will not be able to participate as it is not safe to move them into anglo-egypt as you can counter attack them with 1-2 land units, 1 cruiser, 1 tactical bomber just to clear them out. I think you will hold since 7 or your defending air units are 4’s.

I haven’t decided if I want the UK cruiser from sz39 to escort them with the French DD in case Italy grabs Trans-Jordan[or Alexandria, or Syria] so that West Germany’s Bomber can attack the transport fleet on turn 3.

I haven’t decided if UK should then send its 9 planes to Moscow when the battle for Egypt is over. [Meaning Italy grabbed it turn 4, or the allies reinforced/liberate it from Gibraltar in which case you can leave early.] They will probably be needed as Germany could use its extra plunder to build mostly land.

As I ponder this further, I noted that Italy will be denied National Objectives for multiple rounds. Namely: 3/4 territory one as Gibraltar will not fall, and Egypt will be denied until turn 3 or 4. No ships in the Mediterranean will be denied turns 1,3,4,5+. North Africa NO will never be had either. So over 4 turns, Italy will collect 1 NO turn 2, maybe 1 on turns 3 and 4 if Egypt falls turn 3.

That means over 4 turns, Italy will only collect 10-15 IPCs (5 a turn for 3 out of 4 turns), compare that with a possible turn 3 and 4 all three collection for a total of 30 IPCs if you did not surrender London. 5-10 More if they grab some on turn 2.

Just thinking about some possible merits, I realize pulling from the India theater is not necessary feasible, will have to play test to discover if it is.

@knp7765:

This strategy only works because you are using that exiled capital rule, right?  If London falls, UK Europe can be governed from Ottawa, right?  Personally, I don’t agree with this exiled capital rule.  For one thing, it seems like cheating to me and is very unfair to the other side.  It is usually very hard to capture an enemy capital (Paris not withstanding) and once you got through all the trouble and expense just to have your opponent say, “Okay, my capital is over here now”.  That’s just not right.
Secondly, if you are going to have an exiled capital rule, why does it only apply to UK?  What if Washington falls?  Couldn’t the US move their capital to San Francisco?  If Moscow falls, couldn’t Russia move to Stalingrad?  How about the Axis?  If Berlin falls, couldn’t they move to Warsaw?  My point is that if you are going to let one country do this, then the same rule should apply to all nations.
This being the case, I won’t be trying this strategy.  The UK is governed by London and always will be.  London is where the money is and where the decisions are made.  If London falls, then until the Yanks come and retake it, the UK will simply have a lesser role in the war for a while.
By the way, in my first game using the Alpha+2 setup and rules, Germany was unable to pull off Sealion and the Allies ended up winning in a 13 round game.  Both Germany and Britain lost their navies.  Britain eventually built some navy back up and ended up taking Berlin right after the US took Denmark.  It was a nasty one-two punch that spelled the end of the Third Reich.

Nope, I am not aware of the exiled rule, this idea is a way to save starting UK assets to better redeploy them elsewhere. With the right plan, I believe you can lose London while using the units to neutralize Italy, then reinforce Russia.

I have much more testing and planning to do. I was wondering if anyone else has tried this before?

@Gargantua:

So basically, the trade is, that you WIPE OUT U.K. so that you can WIPE OUT Italy.

Not a bad trade I suppose…

You also get the U.S. into the war on turn 2. Again, I’m not saying this is going to replace other UK strategies, I just think it has enough merits to be explored further. It did work wonders in Europe 1940 using alpha rules and setup, that I can testify to. That does not mean it will also work in Global, but I like what I see, so far. Time will tell.