ALPHA + 3!

@Cmdr:

No, they have 1 fighter they can bring in.  North Italy does not have an Airbase to scramble fighters for.

SZ 97: Aircraft Carrier, Cruiser, 2 Fighters against 1 Battleship, 1 Cruiesr (1 fighter maybe)

Carrier, Destroyer from SZ 98 to SZ 97
2 Fighters from England to SZ 97
(Fighters can land on the carrier after battle, the tactical bomber can land on Malta)

Odds without Cover Air Patrol: 84%
Odds with Cover Air Patrol: 40% win, 40% mutual destruction (both are fine for me.)

SZ 95: Tactical Cruiser, Destroyer, 2 Fighters vs 2 Destroyer, Submarine, Cruiser
Cruiesr from SZ 91 to SZ 95
Fighter from Malta to SZ 95
Fighter from Gibraltar to SZ 95
Cruiers from SZ 98 to SZ 95

Odds without Cover Air Patrol: 92%
Odds with Cover Air Patrol: 60%

Finally, move one guy (or two) from Egypt to Greece, to get the Neutral and reinforcements. (2 IPC for the territory, 4 infantry.  6  Infantry can be some nice extra dmg to the Germans.)

Now, knowing the odds, most players are going to put their S. Italy fighter out to protect the Battleship.  But with 40% to destroy you and win, 40% to destroy you and be wiped out myself and only 20% you survive, I think it’s worth it.  I’ll still have boats left from SZ 95 (or not, lots of Fighters on Malta to hit your new builds with) and now England owns all of North Africa.

Maybe you are not liking 40/40/20 odds of failure, but then, you have to assume Italy’s going to use their fighter, maybe they do not?

If you look, strictly, at what naval ships and planes that can get to the battle you get:

England: 1 Aircraft Carrier, 1 Destroyer, 2 Cruisers, 1 Tactical Bomber, 1 Transport and 4 Fighters

Italy: 2 Destroyers, 2 Cruisers, 1 Battleship, 1 Submarine, 3 Transports

Now, I am not including transports for casualties, I am only including them in respect of how much money in units will be lost.

If you cancel like units (as you did) you get:

England: Aircraft Carrier, 1 Tactical Bomber, 3 Fighters
Italy: Battleship, 1 Destroyer, 1 Submarine

The carrier can take two hits, the battleship can take two hits.  So in that regards, they negate each other.

The extra punch England has is (3(3)+4)=13 (roughly 2 extra hits a round)
The extra punch Italy has is (4+2+1)=7 or roughly 1 extra hit a round.

I feel that either the testers were completely oblivious to the serious danger they put Italy in (essentially removing them from the game before Round 1) or they did so on purpose.

You’re right, UK has a lot of punch in the med, but i still don’t like that UK move for at least 3 reasons.

1- It’s not “maybe” one fighter that will scramble in south Italia, but 3 (2 germain fighters will end up there on G1). Their primary target is now those 2 UK fighters so they will all scramble on SZ95.

2- Often ( somewhere between 35 and 45% i guess), you will not have the UK cruiser on SZ 91 for your attack as a germain sub will have sunk it on G1. Depending on that, one of the 3 figthers might scramble on SZ 97 instead of 95…and it could result with an italien win on both sides ! But of course, you may not make that UK attack with the loss of the SZ91 cruiser.

3- The loss of these 2 UK fighters is a great incentive for Sealion (G1 buy : the “classical” 1 Aircraft carrier and 2 transports).

I won’t pretend to be an expert with just a few games of Alpha+2, but so far, our UK players haven’t be willing to pull that 2 zones attack in the med.

Yeah, I think Germany really needs to get those planes down to Italy G1.  If they don’t, then yeah, could be very bad for Italia.

@eudemonist:

Yeah, I think Germany really needs to get those planes down to Italy G1.  If they don’t, then yeah, could be very bad for Italia.

How, I don’t how 2 planes can attack the UK fleet and fly all the way to souther Italy. Kindly tell me which planes your talking about.

Fighter from Hungary and 1 other air unit from else where. Generally a tactical or fighter from West Germany that was used against France in combat.

@Idi:

@eudemonist:

Yeah, I think Germany really needs to get those planes down to Italy G1.  If they don’t, then yeah, could be very bad for Italia.

How, I don’t how 2 planes can attack the UK fleet and fly all the way to souther Italy. Kindly tell me which planes your talking about.

There is more than 1 solution to this,  but here is what i did last time i played germany :

1 figther (from Western Germany or Norway) attacks SZ 112 and then NCM to southern Italia.
1 fighter for Slovakia/Hungary NCM to southern Italy.

True : the slovakia fighter not participating to any combat on G1 might seem like an heresy to many players, but i don’t care ! My goal is to protect the italian fleet.
On that G1, i have wiped almost the entire UK fleet with losing only one plane ! SZ 106 and 91 have been “cleaned”. The only SZ i didn’t attack was SZ 109.

@Gargantua:

I agree with Axisplaya.

You can use the Hungary fighter in the battle for Yugoslavia, on it’s way to southern italy.

Oops…forgot to do that last time i played, but it won’t happen again !

@cts17:

Fighter from Hungary and 1 other air unit from else where. Generally a tactical or fighter from West Germany that was used against France in combat.

You actually use planes to attack France? WoW

England to SZ 110
SZ 110 to Holland
Holland to Germany
Germany to N. Italy
N. Italy to either SZ (whichever gets the carrier.)

Just to answer the question how the fighters from England get to the Italian fleet.

Meanwhile, Yea, I had not thought of the Germans flying CAP for the Italians…I always figured you were CAPing your own fleet not an allies fleet. (Yes, I know you can.)

That would significantly reduce Italy’s castration.

Gargantua and anyone else,

What would you do if even after putting the 2 German fighters in Southern Italy the fleet with 2 transports goes down and US builds up and heads to Gibralter to size up targets once at war.  I understand Sea Lion is one option if the UK loses too many fighters but I do prefer to fight Russia.  Can Italy be saved, Norway protected so that it at least can be taken back if USA hits there and pressure still put on Russia?  I have some ideas but I think it could be tough.  I won’t tip my hand too much on this until after I fighter Chompers on Thursday.

I understand skillful use of Japan is key and maybe I am answering my own question but as Gargantua has stated earlier Japan needs to put pressure on the US to not spend in Europe one way or another.  I think there are ways to do this with some minor variation in each tactic.

Also do you think it is more important to take Normandy G1 or sink both UK alantic Battleships.  I think it is next to impossible to take down all three, get the fighters to Southern Italy and still make France all but a done deal.  My opponent will scramble his fighters in the UK and Scotland unless I go in with overwhelming force.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.  Hopefully Chompers doesn’t read this thread before I play him Thursday but if he does I will just lose the element of surprise.

Okay thanks I will focus on taking a hard look at how to get as many points for Italy asap.  It doesn’t help that I like to give Southern France to Germany on G2 so that they have a factory in the Med.

Also I am torn on the two Battleships or Normandy because if the Norm Figher doesn’t die then that is one more figher that can attack either Italian fleet UK 1.

Maybe I will build the 2 transports/Carrier G1 and if too many UK fighters die I will build the 10 ten transports G2 and smash UK on G3.  I am not a fan of sea lion but it does seem to be one way to make allies pay for sacrificing too many fighters in a KIF.  It would also take the heat off Italy if US has to go save UK.

I would rather attack Russia so I will see if there are other options I can think of.

The past two games I was the allies and attacked Chompers 2 transport Italian Fleet UK 1 and sunk it both times even though he scrambled 3 fighters with the BB and destroyer.  And that was without the Normandy fighter because he killed it G1.  Maybe I just got lucky though because I am not sure the odds on that fight.

All i can say about the British fleet moving into SZ 95 or 97 is by the time my turn with Germany comes around on G2, at the end of my turn, there won’t be any British ships left in either of those Sea Zones.

@manincellv:

All i can say about the British fleet moving into SZ 95 or 97 is by the time my turn with Germany comes around on G2, at then end of my turn, there won’t be any British ships left in either of those Sea Zones.

I am sure you can back that up with the German Airforce but it might cost you.  It seems to be a win for allies if they sink the 2 transport Italian Fleet, 2 german fighters, 1 italian fighter and then as a bonus get to kill some more German planes on the way out.  So far the best counter I can think of to this is Sea Lion because it would probably tip the odds well into the favor of Germany and bail out Italy.

@Gargantua:

yea it’s a must.

You HAVE to defend the Italian fleet, or you might aswell forfeit the game.

It comes second to nothing else Germany does.

So let me get this straight Gargantua, are you saying you destroy the entire UK fleet and land 2 fighters in Southern Italy to defend the fleet?

I think putting the 2 german fighters in Southern Italy is standard but what Germany and UK decide to do in the chess match after that is not so standard.  Whatever decision each side makes from there can have strong ripple effects through out the rest of the game.

Actually, i would say this :  I kill everything that looks like a UK ship , except in SZ109 + I got a very decent shot at the UK cruiser in SZ91 (works about 35-45% of the times) +  i take France AND normandy AND i land 2 fighters in Southern Italy on G1.  This has worked for me 100% of the times (on a huuuge sample of….3 games lol :-D).

How much does everyone on here use to sink the Battleship and Destroyer off Sea Zone 110?  Do you try to get the UK player to scramble?  Do you not want him to scramble.  If I decide to use too much than I won’t have as many planes to play around with G1 but I will still be able to take Normandy, France and get two fighters to Southern Italy.  I am thinking 3 subs and at least 5 planes into 110 to seal the Battleships fate should UK scramble 3 fighters.