Can a sub go through an un friendly staright?(denmark)

Right, Holland is treated as an already vanquished non-playable ally, like France. On that note, French territories after Paris falls should be treated in the same way, at least the UK could grab some extra income in West Africa, Madagascar & Syria. Would also encourage Germany to take Normandy.

I guess the implication of ‘activating’ friendly neutrals is having to wait for them to fully mobilize. Also not sure why you’d need a combat unit, why can’t an AAA do it? It has a built in support staff and troops.

Well said on everything. The only thing I might disagree on are the Russian units in the east. In a KJF game you need those 20 units to defend Moscow, otherwise Moscow just rolls over and dies way too easily.

With a 22 bid have you seen anyone bid a carrier sub with UK? This would allow UK to stack 92 depending on what Germany buys.

To have a better base for future discussion on any related topics to Submarines,
here is a revised version of the evolution of the main aspects about OOB Sub rules:

@Baron:

For reference, here is the OOB Submarine rule in different A&A version:

Classic:
1st Ed. 1984: A2D2M2C8, attacking Subs get Surprise Strike, cannot submerge but can withdraw in another SZ, cannot hit air.
2nd Ed. 1986: A2D2M2C8, attacking Subs get Surprise Strike, cannot submerge but can withdraw in another SZ, cannot hit air.
3rd Ed. 1997: A2D2M2C8, attacking Subs get Surprise Strike, withdraw in another SZ, defending Sub can submerge in SZ at the end of the round, cannot hit air.

Iron Blitz Edition by Hasbro and Microprose 1999, A&A 3rd Ed.:
Sub: A2D2M2C8, Surprise Strike on attack only, can submerge in SZ at the end of the round, cannot hit air.
Destroyer: A2D2M2C8 can retaliate even when hit by subs surprise strike and cancel Subs submerge.

Pacific 2001 and Europe Edition 1999:
Sub: A2D2M2C8, Surprise Strike on attack only, can submerge at the end of the round, cannot hit air, cannot be hit by air.
Destroyer: A3D3M2C12, cancel Surprise Strike and allows planes to hit subs.

Revised Edition 2004:
Sub: A2D2M2C8, First Strike (attacker and defender), can submerge at the end of the round, cannot hit air.
Destroyer: A3D3M2C12, cancel First Strike and Submerge.

Anniversary Edition, AA50, 2008:
Submarine: A2D1M2C6, First Strike, Submersible: can submerge in First Strike phase before regular cmbt, cannot hit air, cannot be hit by air.
Destroyer: A2D2M2C8, cancel First Strike & Submerge and allows all planes to hit subs.

1942.1 (2009) : Same as AA50.
Pacific 1940 (2009) and Europe 1940 (2010).: same as AA50.

1942.2 (2012) : Same as AA50.
Plus: prevent unescorted transports from offloading for an amphibious assault.

Pacific 1940 and Europe 1940 2nd Ed. (2012): same as 1942.2.

That is as valid an opinion as mine.  :evil:

That’s okay, I would also increase the number of German submarines on the board and put some convoy zones out in the mid North Atlantic that hurt US Economy (and UK Economy)

But then, if we implemented my changes, the Germans would need a significant bid again probably.  So yea, in the case of game balance, realism does need to take a back seat (that is not to say forget it completely!)

To be fair, this is why you never ever ever send carriers anywhere without a destroyer. The same problem happens if you send a carrier plus fighters to attack submarines. Since the carrier doesn’t roll attack dice and the fighters can’t hit the submarines, you just have infinite rounds of combat until the subs either sink the carrier or the units retreat.

This is also why it is recommend that when playing the pacific side as either Japan or the US, you purchase at least one sub for every carrier that the other side purchases.

You should also never tip your carriers on defense if you have no where for your planes to land, since the attacker will almost always retreat and watch your planes crash into the ocean for free.

Building a factory in Norway/Finland seems to be the route needed to go. With that, Russia, UK and US putting pressure on Europe Berlin should fall.

Go back to SCHOOL Degrasse, nobody wants to hear what you have to say.

Oh wait… I guess I was the one who asked… :P

looks around

I bet it’s in the pacific manual too, or the original pacific Alpha.

The “only” is implicitly on page 20 of the Rulebook, as that is the only place in the Rulebook that taking control of an allied power’s territory is mentioned.  In the absence of any other rules regarding taking such control, one may assume that it’s the only way it can be done, since no other provision is made for doing so.