Italy in Iraq…...which direction from there?

@Ichabod:

@PainState:

A lot of posters seemed stunned at this scenario, never scene it ever happen or even could happen. Now that I mulled it over last night and looked at the rules and so forth it is very obvious to me why no one has ever scene this scenario. Because the scenario makes no logical sense.

Italy DOW on Russia and moves in 2 tanks into Eastern Poland.
Russia is now at war with Italy and can DOW on Germany at the start of their next turn, turn 3.
Germany on Turn 3 does not DOW on Russia and just non combats into Eastern Poland.
Russia at the start of Turn 3 DOW on Germany and off we go.

There is no logical reason why Russia would not DOW on Germany at the start of Turn 3, none.

Heck you could argue that it makes no logical sense that Germany did not DOW on Russia at the start of G3 since Italy brought Russia into the war and Russia WILL DOW on Germany on R3.

Hi PainState,

From my perspective, if I was planning on doing a G3 Barbarossa AND I wanted to drive towards the south, then yes, it makes sense to not DOW. My stack will be together except for the minimum required mobile units and maybe 1 AAA in Poland so Russia doesn’t attack Poland to get their NO for occupying an Axis territory. But E. Poland will be real strong because the German air will be there and maybe bombers will also be in range of a raid on the Moscow factory. Also, 5 IPCs is more income than I’d probably get as Germany on the 1st turn.

There are a few disadvantages of course. 1, Russian blockers can’t be attacked. 2, the Scandinavian units are behind. But for me that’s ok, I just use them to lay siege anyways. I never expect to get Moscow on turn 6 anymore. I assume that the UK/Anzac and that lone French fighter are going to get to Moscow.Â

I think it is all about who has the ipcs to spare from existing factory builds. That may be ANZAC, Russia, UK or none of them. It depends on what is happening in each game.

The 3 unit max ANZAC build in Australia can be a constraint if meeting national objectives in the east Indies, in which case a second factory is an idea and options are limited. In such circumstances I have started building bombers, as J is likely to already be on the back foot at land and sea, but might look for a second factory option in future.

This strat has many angles to look at (a lot of if’s). Much would depend on the order and success of the German G1 attacks, and the UK counter punches. If UK lost any planes on G1 (or UK1) they aren’t looking to stack Paris (would be too weak). Keep in mind that as the allies you don’t know if this is on the table or not, but we’ve seen it once or twice so would be aware of the possibility.

I have to say that Whitshadw’s Atlantic attacks against the UK are more risky then I would normally do, maybe he wants UK to scramble to lose a couple planes so they can’t stack Paris (I personally don’t like risking German air power). With that said, he would also be in control of which battles are fought first, keeping his intent to weaken France for the Italians under wrap (a strat that could also be aborted, if it doesn’t feel right the Germans take Paris G1). I would also point out that the Germans would most defiantly be attacking at least one (maybe both) French coastal IC territories on G1. Germany needs the income, and you don’t want those French units to screw you (so please stop arguing that point). If (big IF) the allies don’t stack Paris, Italy would still get the 19 IPC bankroll for taking it It1 (would obviously be much less on G2 or It2). Another thing to point out is that normally the Paris assault takes two rounds, so it is very possible that the Germans won’t be able to strafe it for the Italians because the French folded to easy. It is also possible that the French fight hard, and the Germans have no choice but to leave it for Italy (it happens once in a blue moon).

From UK’s perspective:
It has been established that the UK could still attack Italian sz 97, and 96, but can’t use all her air power if she wants to land all available planes in Paris. Most planes can’t make the sea battles, and land in Paris (1-2 fewer UK planes change the odds rather dramatically in Paris). This would make the Italian sea battles more risky, but UK also knows that the Italians need those planes to sack Paris so would they scramble? At this point Italy may not know it is the UK’s intent to stack Paris, so it works both ways. If Italy can’t take Paris on It2, they would surly want to soften it up for a G2 attack

More to think about,
Did the UK 91 cruiser survive G1 to hit sz 96 w/air (didn’t see that as part of the German Atlantic campaign). If the UK loses a couple planes in either the G1 (scramble), or UK1 battles I don’t think the RAF lands in Paris (too weak) leaving it for the Italians. Either way the UK would probably still hit the bulk of the Ita navy though, so Italy would still be left in a pickle IMO, with a lot on their plate when their turn comes up (unless UK forgoes a naval attack and retreats to the Red Sea?). If the UK stacks Paris with air, and has a couple ships left in the Italian harbor after Taranto, Italy would need to chose attack ships (Brits & French), or attack Paris (for the Germans). I know the Italians can surround Egypt (with German air support), and have a chance to push through, but I also know the UK can bulk up to defend it by pulling units from India and S Africa, build an IC turn 1, or trade it. And yes the US can make a major impact in the Med, and very well may be parked off Gib on US3 (axis generally attack before or on turn 3), some variables there too. There are some games where UK attacks in the Pac and the US can’t leave DC until turn 4 (so they may go Pac where they can move). Also when the US is at Gib, they could also be going north to Norway, but the possibility of US in the Med will generally stall Italy.

Anyway, I don’t think this was ever meant to be a sure fire way for the axis to win a game. It is another possible strat to throw the other side off their game, or do something they may not be real comfortable with (like risking the RAF in Paris). You guys could play 10 games via AAA, but he wouldn’t attempt this in every game (maybe 2-3 times if things fell right). Under the right circumstances it could work out giving Italy some extra income (we have seen it). A strong Italy can be an aid to the Germans defensively, and could help to distract the allies. I know that giving Paris to Italy could also stall a Barbarossa for lack of units at the front. Depends on what round you plan on sacking Moscow. Maybe you just want them to collapse back to Moscow to make them irrelevant for some time, build up and then sack em using their own IC’s to produce units, or by building a minor in say western Ukraine or Ros for a few more good men.

Just thinking out loud that if the UK lost every ship and plane on the Atlantic side by round 2 either through attacks, or counter attacks, that has to be a major set back for the allies. Even if Italy doesn’t get Paris (Germany takes it round G2) and is partially neutered in the process the UK is nothing w/o the RAF, plus their is less allied air going to Moscow. Yea India and US could send some help, but Japan will be licking its chops.

Italy’s job is threefold:
1:  Keep the UK spending to crush Italy
2:  Assist in Russia
3:  Lure the US Fleet past Gib and into the Med

With that being said, the Italian Navy is important to protect, requiring a DD to be purchased in Round 1.  This will draw more UK attention to the Med, which gives Germany more breathing room to advance on Moscow.  Provided your fleet was not decimated in SZ97, ferry units into Yugo with the TT and at least 1 Armor, possibly 2.

Assisting with Russia being your second goal pretty much requires that Italy activates Bulgaria on Round 1 and Italy either reinforcing the German Flank in Romania on I2 or if there is no immediate threat, clearing out Greece before the Brits activate it.  If Italy purchases a Bomber on Round 2, it puts 2 Bombers and somewhere in the range of 6-8 Inf plus 2 Armor in range of Eastern Poland, or Bess.  You even have a shot to can open Western Ukraine at this point, or if Russia is really incompetent, Ukraine MAY be open via an Armor Blitz (provided 2 Armor went into Yugo on Round 1, and reinforced Romania on I2.)  In any case, Italy can stand to gain some IPC and really create problems on the German Southern Flank in Russia.

As for the last goal for Italy, you need to continue to engage the UK into the Med through the time the US enters the war.  Usually this requires naval investments, I prefer to try to get at least 1 DD in every round.  At some point you’ll need to redirect your Bombers back to Rome / Southern France.  You’re goal is to force the Allies to defend SZ91 and interrupt the US TT rotation.  You need to be very opportunistic here and wait for the Allies to expose TT as lightly defended.  This doesn’t always happen, but it is devastating when it does and you can fly 2-3 Bombers and a send a few SS to potentially sink the TT rotation and buy breathing room.  If this doesn’t look like it could happen, you just have to turtle up and encourage the US to land on Rome and not Normandy or S.France.  The whole goal being to keep the US fleet in the Med and out of reinforcement for multiple turns outside of the 3 units it can place on whatever complex it takes.

I think that UK has the advantages in the Mediterranean, and that Italy won’t have Egypt when the US comes in.

However, I have seen it all when it comes to rolls in the Med. I’ve seen all Italian naval units lost, save 1 transport, for 1 British destroyer lost.
I have also seen the reverse. So if Italy gets good rolls they can be a superpower. But if not, they’re in trouble.

One needs to be prepared for every outcome.  That’s all I am saying.

Germany takes France or you can call the game on turn 1 because the germans need the extra cash otherwise they are screwed.

Once again an absolute on winning the game turn 1.

Do You want your German tanks to take France on round 1 and then grab Western Ukraine 5 spaces away by round 3? Then read on.
_* Warning the author of this article and the websites it is on do not claim responsibility for games lost due to following the advise below.

Reader discretion is advised._

Take France, on round 2 attack Yugoslavia with 1 Romanian infantry, 2 other infantry/mechs, and 4 armor in France (sending 5 risks winning). Attack one combat round, retreat to Romania with 4 surviving tanks and maybe a Mech depending on if Yugoslavia hit 2 or 3 times. Then attack W. Ukraine (assumes you declared war round 1 or 2 and captured Bessarabia or E. Poland.

Next:

Can you grab S. France, Greece, Iraq, and Egypt all at the same time on round 2 with Italy (gaining a National Objective) and proceed to Caucasus round 4? I can, see below.

(The allies can stop this with effort and foresight)

I1: attack Yugoslavia for 1 combat round with all N. Italy land units and 1 Albanian infantry, retreat at least 2 artillery and 1 armor to Albania. Move other Albanian infantry into Bulgaria to gain 4 infantry. Transport 1 armor from Albania and 1 South Italy infantry to trans-Jordan (if it is not empty stop reading, I am your opponent). Attack Alexandria with all the Tobruk land units. Move the 1 S. Italy troop and 2 fighters to N. Italy and build 1 artillery and 2 infantry there.

G2: land your W. Germany staged airforce 3 air units (if you built 3 planes G1) to Trans-Jordan after sending the 8 air units staged in North Italy to attack Egypt and land in Trans-Jordan. Maybe send 2 tanks from France into S. France if France placed 2 infantry and 1 artillery there, retreat when you hit once. Only do this if you don’t like attacking 3 units with Italy’s force shown below.

I2: Attack S. France with N. Italy land units and 1 fighter. Attack Greece with Albanian and Bulgarian land units plus a fighter unless you want 2 fighters on S. France. Capture empty Egypt or fight any units built there on UK2 with Alexandra force (move the mechs/tanks to transjordan non combat). Move Transjordan infantry and tank into Iraq. Secure your first National Objective!

G3: Land some air units in Iraq if UK has transports that can hit, Maybe clear Persia of any UK units there and land some air units in Egypt to secure it.

I3: Take N. Persia and move tanks/mech from transjordan into either Syria, Persia, or N. Persia as needed.

G3: Use air force in area to clear Caucasus if heavily defended. Then Italy can handle any reinforcements. Works well if you declared war turn 1 and are in Russia drawing them North.

I4: Take Caucasus with up to 4 infantry 2 armor, 2 Mechs and 2-3 fighters.