Germany to Africa, how?

Re: What if you were Hitler

I always think about this!

What I would do depends on the time period, although in all scenarios I would let the generals focus on the details and I will focus on the bigger picture, along with minimising all atrocities and repealing all anti semitic laws and bringing Jews to work in industry and the military to increase my bargaining position and strength. Total war, the mobilisation of all resources for the war effort, will be declared as early as possible. The big projects, such as the Maus, Ratte, Lowe, the ME 262 jet fighter, the V-2, V-1, V-3, and other rocket projects, as well as other Wunderwaffe, as these were too new, would have had many technological problems (like in real life), and whilst the US could invest in such new technologies, Germany couldn’t when fighting a multiple front war, with fewer resources, and most of the fighting taking place on the Eastern Front, where the completed Wunderwaffe were never used. Finally, the E series of tanks would be built as early as possible. I will only build the E-75 Standardpanzer, as powerful as a Tiger Two, but much cheaper and less complicated to build and maintain, and the E-25 Jagdpanzer. I will change Enigma codes regularly to make it harder to defeat the U-boats, which I will do with all the scenarios here. Another thing I will do in all scenarios is to create an anti aircraft defence like the British did to defend against bombing attacks.

1939: I’ll let the Polish campaign as it is, and don’t invade Scandinavia. This way, Chamberlain would stay in power during the Battle Of France, and when Churchill rises, he would be in them middle of a crisis than at the beginning, and coupled with the encirclement and destruction of the BEF, sue for peace with Britain. After that, don’t declare war on the US, and go all in on the Soviet Union. I would also recruit the Soviet population to fight for Germany. Many people in the Soviet Union hated Stalin and were more than happy to overthrow the Soviet government. Two examples in real life were the defection of a Soviet regiment and a request from officials from Smolensk after the capture of the city, to create a Russian Liberation Army. I will say that they should join Germany, I will have them treated as nicely as possible, create self governing regions, create local forces to eliminate a lot of partisan activity. As for the German navy, I would finish the Seydlitz and Graf Zepplin, and use the German surface fleet to engage in a massive battle with the Royal Navy to lower British morale. I would also let the navy develop their own branch of land based aircraft for more coordination. I would also do this for the 1941 scenario.

Beginning of 1941: Go straight up to Franco and the leaders of Turkey and tell them that they have to join the Axis or be invaded. Don’t invade the Soviet Union yet, and strike a good deal with Vichy France-I will probably mediate so that Italy and Spain get what they want from French North Africa, and give Vichy France as compensation large amounts of Sub-Saharan Africa that Italy doesn’t want. With a full push in the Mediterranean, the British would not help Greece out, capturing Tripoli, but allowing the Germans to move into Tunisia and push the British back into Libya, hopefully crossing the Egyptian border by the end of 1941. Whilst all of this is happening, an airborne invasion of Malta, with Crete not garrisoned, will be launched, and after the capture of Gibraltar through Spain, will ensure the safe supply of resources to Africa. More German troops (possibly an entire Panzer Army), along with Vichy forces, would raise Italian morale. More oil will be allocated for the Italian navy, raising morale. By 1942, the Axis would have pushed through into the Middle East, and a peace treaty should be signed as soon as possible with Britain-even if the Middle East is safe in British hands, a southern front against the Soviets can still be launched through Turkey. I will order the construction of the E-series tanks as fast as possible, but only two types: the Jagdpanzer E-25 tank destroyer, and the E-75 Standard Panzer, as powerful as the Tiger Two, but much cheaper, simpler, and easier to produce. I will not declare war on the US, and by 1942 or 1943, launch Operation Barborossa, and despite more Soviet T-34s and KV-1s and 2s, and more preparations and alertness, the power of the E-75, additional Turkish, Vichy French, Italian, and Spanish forces, bombardment by the Italian navy in the Black Sea, German forces not needed from the Mediterranean, and the opening of a southern front through Turkey would make victory much more likely. I would also recruit the Soviet population, as shown above. By the end of 1944, the Axis should have captured Moscow, and Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia should be independent countries, and all the nations of Eastern Europe should be united by an alliance, headed by Germany. The Vichy French navy is a powerful force and can wreak havoc in the Mediterranean, which can be used with the Italian navy later in the war in the Black Sea.

Beginning of 1942: I would invade Malta before Rommel’s invasion with paratrooper forces I will try to rebuild as fast as possible (not sacrificing quality, of course). Germany should launch an offensive towards the Caucasus, and not invade Stalingrad. The original plan for Operation Case Blue should be followed as shown below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Blue

Hopefully Rommel will succeed in North Africa, which he can then turn his attention against the American Operation Torch landings. Again, I will try to convince Spain, Vichy France, and Turkey to join the war, to make the Middle East more accessible and link up with the Axis in the Caucausus. Again, I will recruit the Soviet population, and despite lots of atrocities being committed, there still can be hope. Hopefully, with a more successful 1942 summer offensive, a peace deal can be achieved. The Graf Zepplin should be completed, as should the Seydlitz. I would do the Channel Dash as in real life, and use all large German ships to be stationed in Norway (including repairing the Gneisenau), and use them to attack Allied convoys. As many ships as possible should be committed for a single operation at once for maximum effect, and to be able to destroy more Allied naval units to gain a better peace treaty.

Late 1942: I will not invade Kursk, instead using those forces to defend on the Eastern Front, recruit the Soviet population (which will still be willing despite large amounts of atrocities occurring), and order the Sixth Army to break out during Operation Winter Storm, hopefully escaping. As Army Group A would not be able to capture anything significant anyway, it should be used to help breaking the encirclement. As many Axis forces in Tunisia should be evacuated as possible, hopefully delaying the Italian surrender. The plan for the German navy would be the same as in early 1942. As the Allies would probably win the Battle Of The Atlantic by now, I would abandon submarine production by summer 1943.

Early 1944: I would propose a fantastic peace deal to the Western Allies, where I would give up the entire Kriegsmarine, give the “10 Countries”: Luxembourg, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Greece, Albania, Denmark, Yugoslavia, Italy, and Norway. Poland will still be under control by Germany, due to the connection with the rest of Eastern Europe. The puppet states of Croatia and the Italian Social Republic will be dissolved, and the Western Allies can influence all of these countries to their liking. If that fails, I would also give the Allies “The Extra Offer Of 5 Countries”: Bulgaria, Estonia, Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, and Latvia. These countries can be influenced on the same terms as the first 10, and the puppet state of Slovakia will be dissolved. My only demand with all of these countries is that they should remain neutral in my war with the Soviet Union. Once the peace treaty has been signed, I would then move all of Germany’s mechanised forces to the Belarus, until I have 30 mechanised divisions there, ready to counter Operation Bagration. Hopefully the attack is stopped, and then I can move my mechanised forces southwards to counter Soviet offensives there as well. Hopefully, with my superior tanks, as powerful as the Tiger Two, but available in more numbers and having less mechanical breakdowns, and the entire Luftwaffe being able to concentrate on the Eastern Front, and resources used from naval production, I can defeat the Soviets and sign a peace treaty.

I started by checking my own Global 1940 map analysis document…

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/26161/global-1940-2nd-edition-map-analysis/33?page=2&lang=en-GB

…and the entry for Chile says “Chile, a country with close trading ties with Germany, initially chose to remain neutral (in contrast with many South American countries which, although technically neutral, tilted slightly towards the Allied side early in the war). Chile only started to distance itself from the Axis powers in 1943, when it broke diplomatic relations with them.”

According to this page…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II

the “Declaration by United Nations”, originally signed by 26 nations in January 1942, was signed by Chile in early 1945. Chile was also one of the original 51 signatories of the 1945 Charter of the United Nations, and Chile also apparently declared war on Japan in April 1945. This page…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarations_of_war_during_World_War_II

…similarly notes the same declaration of war against Japan and similarly mentions none against Germany.

All in all, it sounds as if Chile was one of the countries (there were several, notably in Latin America) which spent much of WWII playing their cards close to their vest, and which only committeed themselves to the Allied bandwagon once it was clear that a) the war was nearly over and b) the Allies were going to win. Based on the other entries in my map analysis document, it looks as if, basically, the Latin American countries whose real inclination was to be pro-Axis spent the war pretending they were neutral; the Latin American countries whose real inclination was to be neutral spent the war pretending they were pro-Allied; and the Latin American / Caribbean countries whose inclination was to be pro-Allied jumped onto the Allied bandwagon right after Pearl Harbor. The reason for all of these positions (nuanced or overt) isn’t hard to guess: they were all in the western hemisphere, i.e. in the backyard of the United States, so they had to be careful about the public stance they took, even in those countries with right-wing governements and/or significantly large numbers of residents of German ancestry.

History has shown that Japan was more favorable to the idea of bring USSR into the Axis but that was more for selfish reasons; easier trade with Germany.

@CWO:

A question: if the Allies had concentrated their efforts and resources on conquering the southern part of Europe, and had not invaded France, isn’t it possible that the Russians would have driven westward through Germany in 1945 and would have kept going through France (which Germany would still be occupying in this scenario) until they got to the English Channel?  In other words, doesn’t a scenario in which the Anglo-Americans end up controlling the southern and eastern parts of Europe create a situation in which the Soviets end up controlling the northern and western parts of Europe, with France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Denmark and possibly Norway being switched from Nazi occupation to Soviet occupation?

You’ve raised a very good question.

In the scenario I outlined, one possible Allied objective would have been to reach the Baltic before the Red Army arrived. Had this been achieved, all of Europe west of this Anglo-American line would presumably have been protected from the Red terror. Whether that was achievable goal is difficult to say.

@Zooey72:

the topic went in a weird direction, to  bring it back I would like to see someone argue the point I made with how Germany could have won the war.

If in either sept 1939, or june 1941 the Sturmgwher were made standard issue to every German soldier how could any army have opposed them?  I think Dunkirk would not have succeeded in 40 and England would have no army, and in 41 Russia would have fallen before winter.  Even if it didn’t fall I am sure Moscow would have fallen, and the following spring offensive would have ended the war in the East.

The difference between this and other ‘miracle weapons’ is that an assault weapon is practical.  Jets and really big tanks take up too many resources even if they had been produced earlier or in greater numbers.  Ammunition would have been a factor, but that would have been it.

Imagine it, an army equipped with assault rifles opposed by armies who are equipped with what is basicaly now a hunting rifle.

Fortunately for the world Hitler didn’t like the concept until it was too late.Â

I found out, that it may have been allready implemented to German Soldiers way earlier, like 1942 as the Mkb-42.
It happend for tests that those Mkb`s 42 were sometimes dropped off for encircled infantry groups in russia to test run it. (weird)
but actually came to positive results of the Mkb-42 aka StGW '44.

@KurtGodel7:

@Imperious:

But short of that I think they could have won if Japan even made the gesture of attacking Russia.

The forces in the ‘far east’ didn’t cause Hitler to lose, Hitlers decision to attack Stalingrad and how he did it destroyed his chances in 1942.

In 1941 The winter caused Hitler to lose because he didn’t prepare for it and underestimated the Soviet army. Those forces were just icing on the cake used for the foiled counteroffensive, AFTER the Germans failed to take Moscow. The battles just before Moscow at Vyzma are the ones that cost the Germans too much time, so they didn’t get to Moscow in force after fighting 5 Soviet Armies.

“Contrary to German expectations, the encircled Soviet forces did not surrender easily. Instead, the fighting was fierce and desperate, and the Wehrmacht had to employ 28 divisions to eliminate the surrounded Soviet armies, using forces that were needed to support the offensive towards Moscow. The remnants of the Soviet Western and Reserve Fronts were able to retreat and consolidate their lines around Mozhaisk.[22]  Moreover, the surrounded Soviet forces were not completely destroyed, as some of the encircled troops escaped in groups ranging in size from platoons to full rifle divisions.[23]  Soviet resistance near Vyazma also provided time for the Soviet high command to quickly bring some reinforcements to the four armies defending the Moscow direction (namely, the 5th, 16th, 43rd and 49th), and to transport three rifle and two tank divisions from the Far East.”

I hardly think “three rifle and two tank divisions from the Far East” were the cause of the German failure. The weather and Hitlers unprepared logistics past a campaign of over 4 month duration were catastrophic.

If Japan attacked Russia it would have done nothing except expose yet another front to them and cause a 3 front war for Japan. The balance of the Soviet forces on the border were more than enough to wipe out the japanese Kwangtung army as they did in 1939.

Japan would gain nothing but another defeat, and tie up units that were used after Dec 41 in a protracted battle. Declaring war and doing nothing was not an option either. Stalin would go on the defensive if he was engaged with Germany. If Japan didn’t get her feet wet, the ploy would fail and 5 divisions still head toward Moscow. If they committed, it would have hastened japanese defeat in Asia. Stalin had more than enough forces for both once Moscow was protected.

You are obviously very familiar with this period of history. I think that the forces from the east to which the earlier poster was referring may have been the 100 divisions the Soviets shipped west during the winter of '41 - '42. After the Japanese attacked Britain and the U.S., Stalin knew they would have little attention to spare for a war against the Soviets.

I agree, however, that Stalin was probably guilty of being overly cautious on his eastern front, and that he could have safely sent large numbers of divisions westward against Germany regardless of what Japan did.

1905 may have played a role in Stalins units  in the East.

No, The back half of russia is much like Alaska, a frozen wasteland. It would take them forever to get troops north of manchuria, and supplying them would be nearly impossible. There werent any natural resource up there so the japanese had no interest in “capturing” (if you can even call it that) north russia. It would be smarter to send troops into china or inda, where the resources were.