Should U.S. troops remain in Germany??

The parties reflect the people…… It’s not like there are only 5 left wing parties and nobody has a choice… The majority votes left and the parties reflect that. There are some extremely right wing parties as well, facist really. Europe is left wing and anti-war because they have had some really major wars there in the last 200 years.

If you don’t like the government I guess you could go shoot some policemen or blow up some government buildings or you could… gasp vote the bastards out of office.

As for choice… Europe has way more choice, the USA has either democrat or republican. Most in Europe have 3-4 major parties.

Taxes in Canada are comparable to the States, toss in free health care and it’s about the same. The reason most Canadians leave is to advance, since the US has 10 times the size there is more room to advance. If you are the big fish in a little pond you can’t grow… It’s only natural that the best and brightest want to go where they can grow :-)

1. Canadians do not “leave to pay for healthcare” in the States.
2. BB is right. Taxes are similar, however we perceive a better standard of living in the States. We are typically educated quite well and therefore competed for. Many American industries through economies of scale offer jobs with better pay and a healthcare package. Doctors go there for better pay/fewer hours.

No they come down here cause our system is better, and they pay for the better care. Most Canadians I have meet in person or chatted with online say 2 things, come to U.S. for better health care even if they have to pay, or stay here and pay less taxes. They don’t come down here for simple medical stuff.

Only the Canadians who can pay the bill come, and they only come for major operations ect. It is cheaper to stay in Canada for primary care, prescription medication, and minor operations. Why do Canadians come to the US? Because they are a small country of 40 million. We have more people, so we have more doctors, and more good doctors.

@TG:

But does S. Korea want our troops there? A lot of them would say, “no.”

*T_VI (& D_S_), you are mistaken! I spent time in S. Korea when done in Nam. Still stay in touch with some SKs I met. The US media covers the vocal minority liberal ‘I’ve had it all handed to me so I don’t value it’ college students as if they were the majority. I’ve been there in the last 3 years and seen it myself.

*Y_y, how about … when it comes time to improve the facilities we move 3/4s of the troops to 2 E Eur. countries. Shrink, but improve the hospital facilities, build excellent emergency treatment facilties in the 2 new locations (great opportunity to improve troops’ language skills.) This would show commitment to the new democracies.

NOTE: Wasn’t there a situation in Viet Nam about 5-8 years ago where a US kid was beaten with a bamboo pole for punishment? I think kids need to know they will answer to other countries laws. It’s not a " You can’t do that to me! I’m a US citizen," world! I always got a kick out of idiots with that mentality.
*Right, F_k!

@F_k:

…and told a US truck driver which way to go. :)

I hope you meant that in a nice way!

POLITICS - Two parties isn’t too bad … Except when one party gains majority control for most of 60 years (see Dems 1932-1994.) At least we have a liberal and conservative choice. Most European countries have a few very liberal and extremely liberal choices. I find it interesting that they have found giving everything away free is economically unsound and have become minutely more conservative with their money. We could try Italy’s example of about 50 parties, averaging about one year in power before troubles collapse the government. :lol: My favourite is Japan, where fights break out in their political houses. Nothing like a good fight to get the blood flowing and the brain working! 8)

*war__, review what you write. I usually do and it seems to help reduce arguments and distractions. Except when I’m asleep on the 'net! :P :wink:

Waraxis: It’s true that often governments do things their citizens don’t like, but they never do anything really radical. I wouldn’t want a government based on polls. Question, are you in favour of eliminating all tax? I bet more than 50% would say yes. Is that a good idea, nope…. I’m not sure a majority of Canadians were in favour of declaring war on Germany (2 years before the USA i might add :-) ), can anybody argue it was wrong to stop Hitler?

I don’t think Canadians transplant to the US in order to pay for health care, rather it’s a side effect. We do need to change some things, the governement should continue to pay but we need private enterprise to deliver it. Just cause a hospital needs light bulbs does not imply the government should own a light bulb plant… Did you know the USA spends 11% of their GDP on health care and yet 20% of the US public has no health care at all. Canada only spends 9% and everybody has coverage. Mind you there are waiting lists and we don’t have some of the cutting edge tech, partly to a system that can be improved, partly we don’t have the economies of scale the US has. Call me crazy but it seems counter-productive to employ hundereds of thousands of people to deny health care (HMO functionaries, insurance company beuracracies etc.) A blend of the best of both systems would do both countries a world of good.

Yanny: Canada is small country of 30 million not 40 :-)

Xi, the US kid who was beat was in Singapore not Vietnam and it was with a cane and all for spray painting 40-50 high end luxury cars…

Gota love Britain’s system too. Seems like one giant party inside the House of Commons. And opposing parties are three swords lengths apart from each other for past reasons :)

Yanny… you think the British parliment is whacky, I’d suggest you watch my Canadian parliment in action but I’d fear you would lose respect for Canada, hell after 5 minutes of watching those clowns I lose respect for Canada. One thing I admire about the US political system is the 2 sides can sometimes work together. We have a ruling party and the opposition, it is the job of the opposition to oppose any and everything… When the opposition gets into power they maintaing the very things they promised to get rid off…

BB

Waraxis…… They complain because it’s the way to get into power. It get’s very personal and vicious and stupid… If you are in the minority party you want to be the majority, and you try to make them look bad… But the majority doesn’t need the minority unlike the US congress. So the opposition asks an embarressing question of one member on the majority side, they reply and try to make fun of the minority… It might be silly, but when the PM wants something done and has a >50% majority he lays down the law, the loyal butlickers goosestep in unison and thus a new Canadian law gets on the books… :-) It sometime’s amazes me that Canada is always either #1 or in the top 5 at the UN best countries list. Then again, free Canuck beer buys alot…

BB

P.S.–it’s a tad insulting that you would say people from Hamburg don’t know much about American soldiers. A.) It implies American soldiers are somehow not as good as UK soldiers. B.) It also rather denigrates the insight of people from Hamburg, many of whom I happen to like a great deal… :wink:

Nah…. i am from Hamburg, so i think it’s not too insulting. And the first implication was not intended… and i can’t see that it is in there somewhere, i just wanted to say that the people can tell more about the troops stationed at their places, and that stationing depends mainly on whose occupation zone it was.

Is it really common in the states that kids do that kind opf nonsense? … I suppose the answer is yes. Another scary thign about the US, next to everyone having the right to own a gun. Just think of when “one leads to the other”, these kids get their first guns, will they necessarily become more sensible about endangering other people?

OK…if you are from Hamburg, then you’re ok. :wink: I love that town…

Yes it IS common in the states, although when I was thinking about it, I can see how it would be VERY shocking to a German. Of course, people should be on better behavior in other peoples’ countries. Here, though it is pretty normal (though of course, frowned upon).

Interesting point about the gun issue. I wonder if there IS a connection to that “irresponsibility” represented in the kids behavior, & that of the grownups. I suspect you may be onto something, bro…

Ozone27

@waraxis:

With all due respect F_alk the scary thing about europe is that people there live under a big government system, that promotes the idea of women not having children, no gun rights, high taxes, and a very one-sided political system!!! Now that is scary!! The people don’t realize how they are screwing themselves. In a 60 Minutes show they said in a few generations Italians could become a minorty in their own country, because of low birth rates and mass Non-Italian Immagration. When I lived in what was known as WEST GERMANY at the time i rarely meet a german women who had 2 or more kids. Not only that some had no kids and didn’t plan to have any!!! And if i brought it up they say that women having kids is so right wing???!!??? NOW THAT IS SCARY WOMEN OF EUROPE THINKING THAT HAVING KIDS IS SO RIGHT WING!! And now I have learned this problem is in Japan!!

Not trying to start a war with you F_alk but please don’t disrespect my country by saying that gun rights are scary!! The big mistake of the British was allowing the 13 colonies to have their guns. Do you know what happens when you give up your guns rights you are asking for a police state!!! I hope this doesn’t start any bad blood between us F_alk I do respect your replies here on the forum I just think that you wouldn’t want anybody saying anything bad about Germany( I wouldn’t either my family on my mothers side is from the bavaria area in Germany)so please don’t say anything bad about my country. I hope this isn’t taken as a flame of anykind. Please excuse the saying

:wink:

Now, waraxis you’re just being silly.

First of all, Germany is not anti-family: last I checked, they still paid a stipend to new mothers to help pay the costs of having a child! Where does that money come from?

Hint: taxes!

So in a few years “Italians” will be a minority in their own country. What IS an “Italian”? Europe has a problem (IMO) w/ identifying their national identities too much w/ race & culture. Where I live (in California) there were a lot of scare tactics in the '80s & early '90s that there would soon be more “non-whites” than “whites”. Now, there ARE in fact more “non-whites” than there are “whites”. Do you know what has happened? Do you know what earth-shaking changes have rocked our great state?

Clue: nothing!

F_alk wasn’t trying to denigrate the US 'cuz we have guns. A LOT of Germans own guns–you just hafta be in law enforcement, or have a hunting licence to legally own one. So–OMIGOD!–they require that if you OWN a gun, you hafta have a good reason you’d want to use it: and know HOW to use it! F_alk was getting at the deeper point that maybe our problem with gun-VIOLENCE has to do with the way we view the world from childhood on up. Not a bad point. And I certainly don’t see any anti-gun brainwashing in evidence here…

C’mon man. READ the posts…

Ozone27

PS- Xi ; the “caning” was in Singapore, but point taken nonetheless…

If I may be so bold as to risk a 3RD POST IN A ROW I’d also like to sound off on this idea of an “armed populace” keeping tabs on the government…

Might’ve worked in the Revolution, but as I recall from my history studies, we would’ve gotten our butts kicked anyway had we not had a GOVERNMENT (that is the Continental Congress) & a constituted regular ARMY to enforce its edicts. Yanny, back me up here…

Also, citizen militia are indeed a gallant and stirring concept, but in the face of modern weaponry what can an “armed populace” hope to accomplish? Ever seen an M1A2 “Abrams” MBT? A FINE piece of ordinance that is–I shudder to think of having to face one w/ a 30.30 hunting rifle :o . It would be pointless and you know it. So should a private citizen have access to an AFV–y’know; to keep up w/ the Joneses? C’mon…

Forget about nuclear weapons. I shouldn’t even have to bring them up…

Now, I am against banning the use of firearms. I DO think that it is a RIGHT of all Americans to keep & bear arms–but only up to the point where they infringe another’s RIGHTS (talking Constitution here, brother–L., L. & P. of H.). Obviously the idea of bearing arms–that is, small arms–to somehow “protect” oneself from the government is patently ridiculous. Whoops! I guess we’ll hafta go through civilized channels, like VOTING!

Ozone27

With all due respect F_alk the scary thing about europe is that people there live under a big government system, that promotes the idea of women not having children, no gun rights, high taxes, and a very one-sided political system!!! Now that is scary!! The people don’t realize how they are screwing themselves. In a 60 Minutes show they said in a few generations Italians could become a minorty in their own country, because of low birth rates and mass Non-Italian Immagration. When I lived in what was known as WEST GERMANY at the time i rarely meet a german women who had 2 or more kids. Not only that some had no kids and didn’t plan to have any!!! And if i brought it up they say that women having kids is so right wing???!!??? NOW THAT IS SCARY WOMEN OF EUROPE THINKING THAT HAVING KIDS IS SO RIGHT WING!! And now I have learned this problem is in Japan!!

Perhaps, the world is overpopulated enough [esp. Japan]? Or when they have kids, they make sure they can provide for them (unlike pregnant schoolgirls…)

How many gunless countries are police states now?? And iºm not talking about the little banana republics, but rather civilized countries.

Hmmm… Brits did not call themselves “civilized” back then? Makes me forget what Imperialism was all about… :roll:

No they come down here cause our system is better, and they pay for the better care. Most Canadians I have meet in person or chatted with online say 2 things, come to U.S. for better health care even if they have to pay, or stay here and pay less taxes. They don’t come down here for simple medical stuff.

Living in Canada, I didn’t notice that big of a difference, except high sales tax in Canada. Now that is what ticks me off. :evil:

*T_VI (& D_S_), you are mistaken! I spent time in S. Korea when done in Nam. Still stay in touch with some SKs I met. The US media covers the vocal minority liberal ‘I’ve had it all handed to me so I don’t value it’ college students as if they were the majority. I’ve been there in the last 3 years and seen it myself.

I said “a lot” –- NOT MOST…

Yanny… you think the British parliment is whacky, I’d suggest you watch my Canadian parliment in action but I’d fear you would lose respect for Canada, hell after 5 minutes of watching those clowns I lose respect for Canada

What are you talking about? That’s the best part in C-SPAN! :D
I like when they throw papers around and make funny faces. :)

Yanny… you think the British parliment is whacky, I’d suggest you watch my Canadian parliment in action but I’d fear you would lose respect for Canada, hell after 5 minutes of watching those clowns I lose respect for Canada

What are you talking about? That’s the best part in C-SPAN! :D
I like when they throw papers around and make funny faces. :)

…so true…

Ozone27

Waraxis…. Until recently Canada had just 3 major federal parties. Progresive Conservative (Republican), Liberal (Democrat) and the New Democratic Party (ummmmm, a cross between communists and environmentalist and wishful thinkers…). For the most part each of the 10 provinces has the same 3 parties. Recently however we have the Bloc Quebecouis, who in the US would be taken out and shot as traitors and perhaps given a trial afterwards. However the federal governnment supports them in their right to try and take Quebec out of Canada. Luckily, most of those who want to seperate are old blood French who don’t make alot of babies. The immigrants seem to think staying in Canada is better for them then letting some kinda scary seperatists run their affairs. Then there is the western based Reform party that just changed it’s name to the Canadian Alliance. They are a bit more right then the Conservative party, kinda like super republicans. But having 2 parties on the right means the vote gets split and the left vote goes to the liberals. We are doomed to be ruled by this party until the 2 parties on the right unite.

BB

@waraxis:

With all due respect F_alk the scary thing about europe is that people there live under a big government system, that promotes the idea of women not having children, no gun rights, high taxes, and a very one-sided political system!!!

I disagree with the first, second, third and fifth. There is a difference between promoting “women not having children” and not promoting “women having children”. A subtle difference, but an important one. The gun rights have been addressed already, and for the one sided pilitical system… i will come to that later.

In a 60 Minutes show they said in a few generations Italians could become a minorty in their own country, because of low birth rates and mass Non-Italian Immagration.

Are native americans the majority? Is diversity a bad thing? … The problem is the european mindset often enough (exception netherlands, example germany) of not letting the immigrants become part of the contries people.

When I lived in what was known as WEST GERMANY at the time i rarely meet a german women who had 2 or more kids. … And now I have learned this problem is in Japan!!

It is a problem of industrialized countries with high educational standards. Not a problem of specific countries. And with about 9 billion people on this planet by 2050, i can’t see what is so bad about having less than two childs.

Do you know what happens when you give up your guns rights you are asking for a police state!!! … so please don’t say anything bad about my country. I hope this isn’t taken as a flame of anykind. Please excuse the saying

It’s not taken for a flame, but:
did you notice that i brought up one point that scres me personally, and you answered with a mass of points, “accusing” in the same way that mine (which was not meant to insult, i sound different then). I never called the US a one-sided police state, but you implied that on Germany…
Be careful that your patriotism doesn’t take you to see attacks on your country where there are none! That can isolate you quickly.

@waraxis:

I did not mean you have no gun rights you then get a police state what I meant was that if the government gets out of control then what do you do?? A disarmed people have no way to resist a government that decides what rights a people can have.

Strike. Something that has a tradition and history in Europe and has worked out fine to bring down the GDR, to let the Kapp-regime collapse after only a few days (during the Weimar Republic), to force out the french occupation of the rhine valley (after WWI when Germany could not pay their reparation rates to the french).
Have a look at your history book…
Ever heard of India? Why are they free, when they did not use any violence?

…You don’t consider the one-sided democracy that Europe has being a non-free democracy?? The parties are all left wing for the most part!! I don’t call that a free society

No, the US is right wing all the way. That’s not what i call a free society.
…This is to demonstrate how plausible your comment sounded to me: not at all, it does make no sense to me. I don’t consider all parties here left wing. If you do, then i have to assume that you are ultra-right wing to the max.
Did it ever come to your mind: If we europeans wanted another party (that you would call right wing), would we not have founded it already? That happens over here, we have parties that are younger than 25 years and in the gov’t, on state level it is even “faster”!! It is the people’s will not to have these parties that you miss. Accept it, but never call it “non-free”: You insult me by that, by your ignorance of how europeans feel.
Add this to the “too much patriotism” i warned you about before: If you start such things, to obtrude your defintions onto other people, you make a big step towards nationalism.

And with this Eroupean union thing I don’t recall a vote being taken for it. You may be right though most Europeans would vote for it. I’ll never understand the average Europeans love for their cradle to grave society??

We voted for it, we still vote for the european parliament, and i will never understand how the average American love their cutthroat and backstab society……
(just trying to retro-reflect your words from my point of view, not as an insult, but to make you see how you easy you can insult others by not picking your words carefully)

@Xi:

@F_k:

…and told a US truck driver which way to go. :)

I hope you meant that in a nice way!

Of course i did. And i even told him the right way to go ;) :D…. no, really, i am a nice person in general… the problem is that some of the things that i can’t stand turn up in this forum often enough… and as i did not know anything about that soldier, why should i not have been nice to him?

@Xi:

? I think kids need to know they will answer to other countries laws. It’s not a " You can’t do that to me! I’m a US citizen," world! I always got a kick out of idiots with that mentality.

It would be nice if there were more people who thought like that. Especially tourists (and there are a lot of ignorant german tourists) are good at that wrong kind of mentality.