Italy a bad design

Historically, the Axis lost the war too.  It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.

@chompers:

Historically, the Axis lost the war too.  It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.

Okay, the axis already got the sinking of 80% of the RN. Now they want to take over 90% of Africa?

@calvinhobbesliker:

@chompers:

Historically, the Axis lost the war too.  It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.

Okay, the axis already got the sinking of 80% of the RN. Now they want to take over 90% of Africa?

We go around in circles a lot here.  Taking Egypt does not automatically equate to taking all/or most of Africa.  There’s an IC in South Africa that can churn out some units to counterattack the shattered remnants of whatever Italians actually survive the conquest of Egypt.  The Allies as a whole have a vast IPC advantage over the Axis and it seems that the game was balanced so that it’s up to Japan to do 80% of the heavy lifting in order to bridge that gap, with Italy contributing essentially nothing.  Heck, the Brits don’t even need a fleet.  They can just do army buys their first 4 turns, wait for the US to roll into SZ 110 in force, and then just plop down transports and 1-2 punch Normandy using the Americans for cover.

@chompers:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@chompers:

Historically, the Axis lost the war too.  It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.

Okay, the axis already got the sinking of 80% of the RN. Now they want to take over 90% of Africa?

We go around in circles a lot here.  Taking Egypt does not automatically equate to taking all/or most of Africa.  There’s an IC in South Africa that can churn out some units to counterattack the shattered remnants of whatever Italians actually survive the conquest of Egypt.  The Allies as a whole have a vast IPC advantage over the Axis and it seems that the game was balanced so that it’s up to Japan to do 80% of the heavy lifting in order to bridge that gap, with Italy contributing essentially nothing.  Heck, the Brits don’t even need a fleet.  They can just do army buys their first 4 turns, wait for the US to roll into SZ 110 in force, and then just plop down transports and 1-2 punch Normandy using the Americans for cover.

If Italy has taken Egypt, it probably has both NO’s, giving it 30-35 ipc’s. Meanwhile, the UK has less than 27 ipc’s. Italy can build more units for Africa than Britain.

Let America take Normandy. germany can retake it from West Germany.

What do you mean I’m an apologist for the UK? I think you have the wrong word. Apologist means I am apologizing for their crimes by justifying them. I’m not doing that.

Both America and GB can land in Germany simultaneously as their turns occur after the Germans, coincidentally with a pretty large army as that’s all GB bought your first 4 turns. They create the beachhead while the US continuously supplies it with 5-6 transports worth of guys every turn along with 2-3 Brit transports of stuff.  Either way, you don’t really need a Brit fleet at all in certain situations.  Admittedly it limits your options for landings as you only have 1 fleet for cover, but it’s stuff like this the Allies can get away with while the European Axis are forced to fight tooth and nail for every bit of IPC’s after their first round conquests, and cannot afford to spend frivolously.

@chompers:

Both America and GB can land in Germany simultaneously as their turns occur after the Germans, coincidentally with a pretty large army as that’s all GB bought your first 4 turns. They create the beachhead while the US continuously supplies it with 5-6 transports worth of guys every turn along with 2-3 Brit transports of stuff.  Either way, you don’t really need a Brit fleet at all in certain situations.  Admittedly it limits your options for landings as you only have 1 fleet for cover, but it’s stuff like this the Allies can get away with while the European Axis are forced to fight tooth and nail for every bit of IPC’s after their first round conquests, and cannot afford to spend frivolously.

Then the US needs 5 inf and 5 art, let’s say. That’s 35 ipc’s. Thus, the US has 55 ipcs left over. Japan is spending its 80 ipc’s on North America, for example. How do you prevent this situation from happening?

Woah woah woah, I think our two conversations are starting to blend together here.  The Allies are pulling these combined landings no later than turn 5.  How is Japan grabbing all the eco it needs to do anything but scratch the paintjob on the US war machine while its making purchases and positioning part of its starting forces to embark on a US harass?

@chompers:

Woah woah woah, I think our two conversations are starting to blend together here.  The Allies are pulling these combined landings no later than turn 5.  How is Japan grabbing all the eco it needs to do anything but scratch the paintjob on the US war machine while its making purchases and positioning part of its starting forces to embark on a US harass?

In P40, OOB, Japan easily takes all of Asia by turn 5

I’m well aware of this, but how are they doing all that when their air force has to fly away from the front lines no later than turn 3-4 to make a turn 5 attack possible?

@chompers:

I’m well aware of this, but how are they doing all that when their air force has to fly away from the front lines no later than turn 3-4 to make a turn 5 attack possible?

By J3, the only territories left to conquer is a few Chinese ones. Not that hard to do

So you’re saying the J3 india attack goes ahead without any aircover? Because its 2 turns back to Japan from there, meaning you don’t get them to Alaska till turn 6.  Meanwhile, the US is getting an extra fleet of transports and troops into Europe now.

Yes. japan takes Alaska J4 or J5 and blocks BC if necessary to prevent a tank blitz and moves planes on J6. Besides, not all planes are needed for India

I’m assuming the 18 Russian inf are just twiddling their thumbs during all this too?  Or did the Japs also manage to kill them, the chinese, india, and anzac all with the negligible aircraft losses they’d need to have to make the Japan/US battle anything close to on equal terms?

@calvinhobbesliker:

@chompers:

@calvinhobbesliker:

@chompers:

Historically, the Axis lost the war too.  It seems they may have taken a page or two too many from the history books rather than worrying about an even fight in Europe/Africa.

Okay, the axis already got the sinking of 80% of the RN. Now they want to take over 90% of Africa?

We go around in circles a lot here.  Taking Egypt does not automatically equate to taking all/or most of Africa.  There’s an IC in South Africa that can churn out some units to counterattack the shattered remnants of whatever Italians actually survive the conquest of Egypt.  The Allies as a whole have a vast IPC advantage over the Axis and it seems that the game was balanced so that it’s up to Japan to do 80% of the heavy lifting in order to bridge that gap, with Italy contributing essentially nothing.  Heck, the Brits don’t even need a fleet.  They can just do army buys their first 4 turns, wait for the US to roll into SZ 110 in force, and then just plop down transports and 1-2 punch Normandy using the Americans for cover.

If Italy has taken Egypt, it probably has both NO’s, giving it 30-35 ipc’s. Meanwhile, the UK has less than 27 ipc’s. Italy can build more units for Africa than Britain.

Let America take Normandy. germany can retake it from West Germany.

What do you mean I’m an apologist for the UK? I think you have the wrong word. Apologist means I am apologizing for their crimes by justifying them. I’m not doing that.

OMGZOR!!!  You mean Italy actually having a chance to meet the UK IPC for IPC is unfair???  Italy also has to stand against the 82 IPC USA, AND hold the entire Med Sea, AND hold the whole African continent to maintain the 30+ IPCs…  C’mon!  Germany has to be strong against the UK at game start so Italy has at least a CHANCE of forming some buffer space against the USA and UK.  The UK1 Taranto attack pretty much destroys any Italian chances for clearing the Med for the first few rounds, and its probably at least 3 turns before Italy can rebuild the BB, TRN and CA with its piddly starting income.  By then its Round 4 and Team America World Police is 2 turns away from landing 10 TRNs in S. Italy proper.  Italy NEEDS 2 extra starting subs with its BS and CA to give it a chance against the UK raid.

There’s no way the Italians can fortify Gibraltar/NW Africa to hold against a UK/US attack with only one transport, much less missing half its starting fleet.  Gibraltar is set up in this game even more unfairly than before, with it giving 3 spaces to the sides that hold it (it WILL be the Allies); the US can send units in one turn from its naval base on the East Coast straight to Gibraltar, and from there its only one more turn (3 spaces) to invade EITHER N. OR S. Italy!!!  Even if everything goes perfectly for the first few rounds for Italy, if the Western Allies are determined Italy is already doomed.  (Italy is basically a stall for time anyway, a distraction from the big show over in Russia.)  So the starting UK losses shouldn’t be that bad of thing, and Italy needs all the help it can possibly get.

Umm, I think you’re ignoring the 80 ipc country called Japan

I’m really thinking the Axis are going to be the side needing a bid in this game, and its probably going to go to Italy, just because of this Taranto raid.

It’s not unfair for them to meet or surpass UK. In fact, they do so anyway: By taking Vichy, Bulgaria, Greece, Kenya, Tunisia, and Syria, it has 29 ipc’s with NO’s. UK has 29 as well, due to the loss of Alexandria. Also, Italy may take Paris, if you’re THAT worried about them. It can also activate Iraq unless Russia takes it first

@SgtBlitz:

I’m really thinking the Axis are going to be the side needing a bid in this game, and its probably going to go to Italy, just because of this Taranto raid.

Then at least give the UK a small fleet that can survive in the North Atlantic against uboats and planes. How about this: Miamibeach is willing to test out theories out. You play Allies to show how Italy has no chance, and he’ll play axis to show that they do

Wait, the US has a single destroyer to start, with your expenditure of the UK carrier/DD the Uk is down to possibly 3 boats left on that half of the board.  Germans should have atleast 6 planes left after turn 1.

My guess here is your german player is going balls to the wall against Russia doing a war dec on turn 2.  The german player, a 60+ IPC monster, has only the UK to worry about until turn 4.  Why are they not building an airforce of boat sinking doom?  And how is the US shucking that many men that fast when you would need a 5x5x5 set of transports to do that each turn.  Thats 15 boats!  15x7=105 IPCs, leaving not enough to even defend them from the starting german air.

As far as Japan getting nutty, yeah, they just explode income wise, esp if US is ignoring them.

How about we let this thread die till a battlemap module is released and then see what happens.  No matter what everyone here is playing with a small group of players and that limits how many various strats/options you can see.