Sealion inevitable?

Oh, so you’re saying 1 transport piece in A&A is approximately equivalent to 10 WWII transport ships?

@calvinhobbesliker:

Yes, but the only transport the Germans had were river barges, not the equivalent of 10 transports.

Yeah, that is why the Germans will need to buy 10 transports if they want to do a Sealion… it’s not like they start out the game with 4+ transports.

@LHoffman:

@SgtBlitz:

You can do it, Sealion definitely can be done.  Whether you really want to sink 30 IPCs into an AC, DD, and SUB on G1 and 63 IPCs into 9 transports on G2 is up for debate.  Chances are whatever you build on G3 is going to be needed post-haste to reinforce against an American counter-attack in England (at least 10+inf, so ANOTHER 30 IPCs) on G4 before America’s turn.  Then, also, there’s the matter of keeping your Atlantic fleet with all those vulnerable transports alive for G4 onwards vs. an 84 IPC/turn USA and Gigantic Godzilla Russia.  So, if you REALLY want to take England, you can, but be prepared to learn Russian fairly soon as there’s not much financial incentive for taking London past KOing the European English out of the game for a few turns and surrendering on G5.  Or if you’re feeling really anti-British that day :mrgreen:.

The only positive side-benefit of throwing so many IPCs at England is that Italy and Japan should have a field day on the rest of the board.  If they can come to Germany’s rescue in time Sealion might be more practical, but that’s a BIG if.

I take a bit of issue with this plan. It seems to me that if you wanted to do a successful Sealion, it would have to be ASAP… meaning G2… NOT G3. If you wait till G3, that is all the more units Britain can buy. Unless you plan attacking England on G1 with the Luftwaffe. Unfortunately, this is sucidal for your aircraft without land unit support.

By G3/R3 Russia will be Godzilla sized… and they are going to need Japan to come bail them out somehow.

One thing I am curious about… why do you need to buy a DD and a SUB on G1? To me such units seem useless, especially in this situation. Why not buy more infantry or transports for G2/G3 attack? And by the time G4 rolls around, Germany should have more important things to deal with than reinforcing England; unless the Japs and Italians start bringing the war to the USSR… but even then…

How would you go about a G2 Sealion?  With a starting IPC of 30, I just don’t see it

@shohoku201:

How would you go about a G2 Sealion?  With a starting IPC of 30, I just don’t see it

Me neither… that is what I am saying. G2 would be extremely hard. G3 gets worse…

Germany probably has a better shot at invading Canada.  :evil:

@Seven_Patch:

Germany probably has a better shot at invading Canada.   :evil:

You kidding? … A WAY better shot… that’s something those Limey’s wouldn’t suspect!

Feint Sealion and go for Canada!  :evil:

G3 Canada Crush

@McMan:

G3 Canada Crush

Yeah… there probably won’t be much to Crush in Canada, but the Krauts will be overwhelming anyway.

@shohoku201:

@LHoffman:

@SgtBlitz:

You can do it, Sealion definitely can be done.  Whether you really want to sink 30 IPCs into an AC, DD, and SUB on G1 and 63 IPCs into 9 transports on G2 is up for debate.  Chances are whatever you build on G3 is going to be needed post-haste to reinforce against an American counter-attack in England (at least 10+inf, so ANOTHER 30 IPCs) on G4 before America’s turn.  Then, also, there’s the matter of keeping your Atlantic fleet with all those vulnerable transports alive for G4 onwards vs. an 84 IPC/turn USA and Gigantic Godzilla Russia.  So, if you REALLY want to take England, you can, but be prepared to learn Russian fairly soon as there’s not much financial incentive for taking London past KOing the European English out of the game for a few turns and surrendering on G5.  Or if you’re feeling really anti-British that day :mrgreen:.

The only positive side-benefit of throwing so many IPCs at England is that Italy and Japan should have a field day on the rest of the board.  If they can come to Germany’s rescue in time Sealion might be more practical, but that’s a BIG if.

I take a bit of issue with this plan. It seems to me that if you wanted to do a successful Sealion, it would have to be ASAP… meaning G2… NOT G3. If you wait till G3, that is all the more units Britain can buy. Unless you plan attacking England on G1 with the Luftwaffe. Unfortunately, this is sucidal for your aircraft without land unit support.

By G3/R3 Russia will be Godzilla sized… and they are going to need Japan to come bail them out somehow.

One thing I am curious about… why do you need to buy a DD and a SUB on G1? To me such units seem useless, especially in this situation. Why not buy more infantry or transports for G2/G3 attack? And by the time G4 rolls around, Germany should have more important things to deal with than reinforcing England; unless the Japs and Italians start bringing the war to the USSR… but even then…

How would you go about a G2 Sealion?  With a starting IPC of 30, I just don’t see it

All the trials we’ve done with the Global game so far show that Germany just doesn’t have the air/naval power to prevent the RAF and RCN from destroying the German Sealion fleet in SZ 112 on Round 1 without building an AC and at least one naval splash unit.  The DD/AC/TAC in SZ 91 plus the 3 FIGs in the UK is going to sink the Bismarck G1 (and any other boats nearby) unless you have an AC and 2 FIGs to beef SZ 112 up.  With only one or two TRNS available (at the most) for Sealion on G2 you just aren’t going to be able to attack the UK successfully (unless the UK does something stupid like building all boats UK1 or smth).  IF you really want to do the Sealion attack its going to have to happen on G3 with close to 10 TRNS to get units through to the 20 inf the UK has been building the entire time.

You MIGHT be able to pull it off G2 IF you send your entire airforce to destroy the 2 INF and 3 FIGs in the UK on G1, but that’s playing the odds a bit, plus the naval battles outside England HAVE to work entirely in your favor so the Brits don’t have more than one BB capable of reaching SZ 112 and destroying the transport fleet before it can sail G2.  Your airforce will also be so beaten up it might not even matter when it comes to the invasion on G2 anyway.  I’ve tried this and got diced fairly badly in England losing most of my Luftwaffe G1…  not the best idea around.

By G3 can’t the Americans bring ships into the channel and form some sort of a blockade? I mean, not that they would be of any tactical use, especially if they aren’t at war yet… but they’d prevent shore bombardments and they would make Germany bring the US into the war, perhaps earlier than they wanted to?

Is this at all possible? I have not looked at the map/rules/Sealion strategy to know if there is a way to preventt the US from doing this…

@LHoffman:

By G3 can’t the Americans bring ships into the channel and form some sort of a blockade? I mean, not that they would be of any tactical use, especially if they aren’t at war yet… but they’d prevent shore bombardments and they would make Germany bring the US into the war, perhaps earlier than they wanted to?

Is this at all possible? I have not looked at the map/rules/Sealion strategy to know if there is a way to preventt the US from doing this…

Powers neutral to each other can share the same sea zone

So, basically, all the US would be doing is watching the friendly neutral Jerries blow the crap up out of London G3 from the Channel (you couldn’t drop off land units to help either).  The next turn, however, would contain shenanigans.

Ah… so if the US in in a sea zone w/ a British ship and Jerry wants to do an amphib in that sea zone… they can ignore the US ship? That doesn’t make much sense to me…

I believe that with full, unhindered investment Germany could do Sealion on turn 3. However, we should remember that major ICs downgrade into minor ones upon capture, so I doubt Germ could produce enough in the UK to hold it in the face of American aggression. And on turn 3, Germ will be hurting from that huge naval buy and vulnerable to the Russians.

I think the most viable strategy is to have enough of a fleet to threaten both the UK as well as Northwest Russia, in order to force both parties to be prepared for an attack instead of attacking you.

@LHoffman:

Ah… so if the US in in a sea zone w/ a British ship and Jerry wants to do an amphib in that sea zone… they can ignore the US ship? That doesn’t make much sense to me…

The rules specifically say that neutral ships are ignored unless the opponent specifically decides to attack them, in which case they must declare war.  However, the US may not move their naval units to sea zones adjacent to Britain, Europe, or Africa while they are not at war, so the point about blocking the channel is moot anyway.

@SAS:

@LHoffman:

Ah… so if the US in in a sea zone w/ a British ship and Jerry wants to do an amphib in that sea zone… they can ignore the US ship? That doesn’t make much sense to me…

The rules specifically say that neutral ships are ignored unless the opponent specifically decides to attack them, in which case they must declare war.  However, the US may not move their naval units to sea zones adjacent to Britain, Europe, or Africa while they are not at war, so the point about blocking the channel is moot anyway.

DAMMIT! ! !

LOL, LHoffman, quit whining, Sealion is the WORST POSSIBLE GERMAN STRATEGY.  The Jerries can take England, but it will be at most for 1 turn, and then they won’t have anything left to fight Russia much less hold onto England from US counterattacks.

The G1 buy will have to be 1 AC, DD, and SUB.  The G2 buy will have to be NINE TRANSPORTS.  There’s no infantry built in there anywhere, and you’re committing around 20 ground units to the assault, for a battle with slightly less than even odds.  Even if you dice well, its inevitable you’re going to lose England since there’s no conceivable way you can hold the UK against an 82+ IPC USA.

Um, to me it seems that a turn 1 buy of navy is foolish for a sea lion.  You would be better served to place your BB/Cru out to kill the two cruisers with some air help, make sure no brit DDs survive, then purchase a fighter or two, and some subs while hiding the transport in the baltic.  Then if UK leaves itself open with there purchases, as in they buy navy or squander it in the med, then on G2 you should purchase enough boats to keep a fleet alive in 112, and a crapton of not just transports, but planes.  Planes can hit UK, and help to keep the US at bay.

And if the UK wastes its air killing your ships, so be it.

@SgtBlitz:

LOL, LHoffman, quit whining, Sealion is the WORST POSSIBLE GERMAN STRATEGY.  The Jerries can take England, but it will be at most for 1 turn, and then they won’t have anything left to fight Russia much less hold onto England from US counterattacks.

The G1 buy will have to be 1 AC, DD, and SUB.  The G2 buy will have to be NINE TRANSPORTS.  There’s no infantry built in there anywhere, and you’re committing around 20 ground units to the assault, for a battle with slightly less than even odds.  Even if you dice well, its inevitable you’re going to lose England since there’s no conceivable way you can hold the UK against an 82+ IPC USA.

I’m not whining, I am trying to argue my point and come up with possibilities here…

Oh, so you’re admitting that “Sealion is the worst possible strategy”… well then, I can stop arguing. That was my whole point was that it was a bad idea for trying to be victorious in the game. If you realize that then my job is done. I thought all this time you wanted to do it because you thought it was a GOOD idea.

As long as you recognize it is bad, then I am fine with you pursuing your novel ideas… I didn’t want you corrupting the youth though.  :-D

@bugoo:

Um, to me it seems that a turn 1 buy of navy is foolish for a sea lion.  You would be better served to place your BB/Cru out to kill the two cruisers with some air help, make sure no brit DDs survive, then purchase a fighter or two, and some subs while hiding the transport in the baltic.  Then if UK leaves itself open with there purchases, as in they buy navy or squander it in the med, then on G2 you should purchase enough boats to keep a fleet alive in 112, and a crapton of not just transports, but planes.  Planes can hit UK, and help to keep the US at bay.

And if the UK wastes its air killing your ships, so be it.

Nope, the UK can splash your fleet in SZ 112 unless you back it up with at least 1 CV + 2 FIGs.  There’s 2 BBs in range, multiple DDs, 1 CV/TAC/DD off Gibraltar that can reach, 3 FIG off England….  SZ 112 is a gonner if you move any naval units there without serious backup.

You could try to hide out in SZ 113 the first few turns and not use the BB and CA at all, but its going to be really hard to kill the entire RCN with just the subs and airforce w/o taking losses.  Even if you didn’t move it out of the Baltic until G3, the UK can build 2 FIGs a turn and will eventually use its starting 3 FIGs, 1 TAC to take out the BB and CA unless you build extra fodder naval units.  Hence, I’d recommend a CV G1.

By G3 you’re looking at over 20 inf in the UK plus all their planes, you’d have to build something like NINE TRANSPORTS to even get even odds attacking that.