From the wide variety of responses to the original question that have been generated, I think I’ve got a better feel for how complicated an issue Germany’s resupply of Italian troops in Africa will be.
Key factors FOR African resupply seem to be:
Key factors AGAINST African resupply seem to be:
If I’ve left out any obvious factors, let me know.
For the moment, all things considered, it looks to me like the factors weigh towards resupply. However, as convoy raiding with Allied subs will be a concern in the Med, building up Axis naval presence there might be necessary regardless of the intention to take up the offensive in Africa. This necessary build-up will just make it easier to use the navy for what it was meant to do. It will be a touch balancing act for the Axis, nevertheless; it’s going to be very interesting to play Italy in this version, or the Germans, trying to figure out how to best distribute their forces and resources…
Dardanelles closed (no amphibious landings in USSR possible; makes Africa Axis priority)
remember either side can invade turkey to gain access to Dardanelles
Dardanelles closed (no amphibious landings in USSR possible; makes Africa Axis priority)
remember either side can invade turkey to gain access to Dardanelles
Hmmm. That’s true, but I think that Turkey’s defending forces are going to be quite tough, and will probably act as a strong deterrant for the Axis forces (Allied, too). Who knows? The USSR might have naval units waiting in the Black Sea, to boot ;)
I predict that taking the Dardanelles will be a low priority for Italy (Germany, too), as the Italians will probably need to get their NOs off of taking Gibraltar, Malta, Egypt, and so on. The financial constraints will be too strong to enter into a needless conflict with a heavily-defended neutral country. Of course, this is all still open to speculation…
@The:
There will be a fortress Malta. Depending on whether it can survive turn 1 it’s could cause some major problems from Italy.
Turn 1? It never fell and you’re talking about taking it turn one? Why? Surely the Italians have more important things to do. I mean, yea, it’s “a light in the darkness” and a thorn for Italy, but it will be worth nothing ipc wise and will take up valuable troops that could be spent better on capturing Egypt. I haven’t seen the board yet, but i don’t think i’ll be willing to make this “dedicated push” that larry says is required to take malta until i dominate most of africa as italy. anyone else thinking the same thing?
Yes, and I’m sure that’s exactly what Rommel and Mussolini thought about Malta too. And probably why many of italy’s transports to Tunisia got sunk en route historically. Watch the British and US players land 5+ bombers/fighters on it round 3 and then see your fleet disappear.
@The:
There will be a fortress Malta. Depending on whether it can survive turn 1 it’s could cause some major problems from Italy.
Turn 1? It never fell and you’re talking about taking it turn one? Why? Surely the Italians have more important things to do. I mean, yea, it’s “a light in the darkness” and a thorn for Italy, but it will be worth nothing ipc wise and will take up valuable troops that could be spent better on capturing Egypt. I haven’t seen the board yet, but i don’t think i’ll be willing to make this “dedicated push” that larry says is required to take malta until i dominate most of africa as italy. anyone else thinking the same thing?
Yes, and I’m sure that’s exactly what Rommel and Mussolini thought about Malta too. And probably why many of italy’s transports to Tunisia got sunk en route historically. Watch the British and US players land 5+ bombers/fighters on it round 3 and then see your fleet disappear.
According to the World at War documentary, only 25% of the intended Axis supply ships ever made it across the Med to the African theater.
See 2:00:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgQ-HXAcMh0&NR=1
And as a result (see 3:00): “Malta became the most bombed place on Earth.”
If the Axis are actually able to take over the Air Base at Malta, however, they’ll be able to scramble their fighters and tactical bombers to defend the Italian and German fleets in the Med, which will lock down the area for subsequent conquests. It’ll be a key territory for either side, as it has the potential to determine the outcome of the fight for the Med. The Italians will be strongly motivated to take it out; it’ll probably be part of the standard I1 opener.
Malta was just a fly speck on the map before the scramble rules came into effect.
Ahhh I see someone likes the World at War documentary, probably the second best doc ever made, behind The Civil War IMO.
I wonder how Greece will be handled in Euro 40. Bulgaria more or less annexed Thrace/Macedonia in April 1941, giving Bulgaria access to the Aegean Sea (part of the Med). This is also the same time period that Bulgaria joined the axis (Bulgaria will start out as pro axis). If this slice of land falls under Bulgaria instead of Greece in the game, Bulgaria would be an awesome place to build a German IC. It would give you access to the Med and Black Sea to put German ships in both waters. It would also be a great staging point to launch an attack on Turkey. If you look at the AA50 map Bulgaria/Romania does go south all the way to the Aegean Sea. Much will depend on how the sz are put in as well.
I think this sliver of land will remain Greek though, so it might be better to allow Germany to take Greece (instead of Italy) so as the German player you could build an IC there and still have access to the the Med (build transports & ships). This would also allow you to put German inf at that front to launch an attack on N Africa, Turkey, Mid East, or push through to Russia.
@WILD:
I think this sliver of land will remain Greek though, so it might be better to allow Germany to take Greece (instead of Italy) so as the German player you could build an IC there and still have access to the the Med (build transports & ships). This would also allow you to put German inf at that front to launch an attack on N Africa, Turkey, Mid East, or push through to Russia.
Building industrial complexes in conquered lands is arguably just a game concept, but as long as it is in the game why shouldn’t Germany be able to buld an industrial complex in a territory conquered by Italy? or Italy itself for that matter?
@Brain:
@WILD:
I think this sliver of land will remain Greek though, so it might be better to allow Germany to take Greece (instead of Italy) so as the German player you could build an IC there and still have access to the the Med (build transports & ships). This would also allow you to put German inf at that front to launch an attack on N Africa, Turkey, Mid East, or push through to Russia.
Building industrial complexes in conquered lands is arguably just a game concept, but as long as it is in the game why shouldn’t Germany be able to buld an industrial complex in a territory conquered by Italy? or Italy itself for that matter?
You have a good point BD, but I think it would really mess w/game mechanics if you could build IC’s on your allies tt. I don’t think it would be good if the US was able to build IC’s on UK tt, or in England its self. Part of the game is the fact that powers like US has a logistics problem.
Yeah allowing industrial complexes built in allied territory would probably destroy the balance of the game.
“Rommel” will probably never make it to Africa without a very determined German player.
Think about it
You’ll probably take a Mediteranean coastal territory on Turn 2 so…
Turn 3 place new Industrial complex on said territory
Turn 4 produce 3 transports, less if you have to also produce escorts becuase of Allied air
Turn 5 move units you’ve had waiting at port to Africa
Does this even sound like a workable plan to anyone? I don’t think so! Perhaps there will be a Complex in Marsielle that will allow you to produce your transports on Turn 3 instead? Either way your getting a few German units to Africa by turn 4-5 but not enough to make an Assualt on Egypt. Don’t forget that while all this is going on your preparing to attack Russia and holding off various U.K mischief.
Rommel has to make it to Africa or this game will suck.
The sad part is it would take just as long to use Italian transports to move your units to Africa! Perhaps someone will make a silly house rule that allows Germany to turn over a certian number of units to Italy that they can load onto transports and ship to Africa much quicker on their turn. Call it an “Expiditionary Force” Rule or something?
@Danger:
Perhaps there will be a Complex in Marsielle that will allow you to produce your transports on Turn 3 instead? Either way your getting a few German units to Africa by turn 4-5 but not enough to make an Assualt on Egypt. Don’t forget that while all this is going on your preparing to attack Russia and holding off various U.K mischief.
I think that there will be a major IC in France touching the Med. Remember that in the AA50 (1941) set-up a German transport starts there. I think they’ll try to keep German support in the African theatre an option; one that might perhaps be required if the cash-poor Italians are to make any headway.
They could just be doing this to discourage people from sending all of Italy’s units into the Eastern Front and doing can-openers. If it becomes ridiculously hard for Germany to send troops to the Mediterranean than Italy will have it’s hands full and it may make for a more interesting game experience.
@Danger:
“Rommel” will probably never make it to Africa without a very determined German player.
Think about it
You’ll probably take a Mediteranean coastal territory on Turn 2 so…
Turn 3 place new Industrial complex on said territory
Turn 4 produce 3 transports, less if you have to also produce escorts becuase of Allied air
Turn 5 move units you’ve had waiting at port to AfricaDoes this even sound like a workable plan to anyone? I don’t think so! Perhaps there will be a Complex in Marsielle that will allow you to produce your transports on Turn 3 instead? Either way your getting a few German units to Africa by turn 4-5 but not enough to make an Assualt on Egypt. Don’t forget that while all this is going on your preparing to attack Russia and holding off various U.K mischief.
Meh, I’m guessing that this is SUPPOSED to be the way things play out for Germany to be involved in the Med. Remember, IF the Axis are on the up and up they probably aren’t going to piss off America until the end of Round 3 to avoid the war activation. So, Round 4 will be the turn the US finally gets involved in the war, and the board should look more like what it does in AA50 at startup in '41-'42. Round 4 in AAE40 ='s Round 1 in most Axis and Allies games.
Though, yes, I agree with the original statement, unless the French come with a minor IC in the med at game start, I wouldn’t waste my precious German IPCs to build a minor industrial complex for something so stupid as helping Italy with Africa… Seems a waste of resources.
@Brain:
Rommel has to make it to Africa or this game will suck.
I couldn’t agree more! It just wouldn’t be axis and allies without a German presence in africa.
Well now we definitely need and Axis and Allies North Africa game.
Hear, Hear!!
